Death of this War Dragons


#223

People will still pay PG to be the first to have new goodies, and will continue to pay for the sake of advantage and progress even at the top. The problem PG faces come from it’s own blinders. They would have an exponentially bigger player base with more people spending for advantage sake if it were possible to reach the finish line, even if that finish line continues to jump forward as it currently does. That is why people constantly reference MMO’s because the correlation IS relevant. The spenders are going to be the one’s Who fancy portraits and titles and get to be “world firsts” but halfway-3/4 the way through the season or current expansion and everyone has reached the end of is grinding out the end-game content IF they are serious and put in the time and effort.

That’a why those kinds of games continue to be played for 15-20+ years and they don’t have to offer incentive to people who have quit to come back to their game because it’s not being sustained. The game itself is the incentive and most people who quit those games simply don’t have the time for them anymore - not because they are disgusted and frustrated with Blizzard. The people who are disgusted and frustrated with Blizzard are mad because they aren’t getting new content for their favorite title or a Diablo 4. Recognize that THEIR player base was mad about a shift into the mobile arena.


#224

I agree there needs to be better team based prizing. But if you look in the lower leagues, you see a lot of teams that have maybe 4 or 5 players that pretty much carry a team through events. So individual prizing still needs to be recognized in some capacity. So how does PG balance that out? Take out leagues all together and make it a global standings? Or they could just add prizing for team global standings. It’s not common but has happened where a team in a lower league has scored higher than teams in D1 or D2. Maybe global team prizing is something to think about.


#225

Right, so then that is a weak team, as far as what a team is, if you want to preserve what teams are you cant reward that.

Wouldnt that just mean ultra sandbagging? You now are rewarded not for performance but by hanging out in a lower band and “winning” there? Global individual prizes are awful for what people put in but it all comes down to that too, do they want team or individual, at some point one has to take priority.


#226

With the current structure I would agree it’s sandbagging. In minor events it’s not really. People are gonna breed or build what they can no matter what league they’re in. I can see an issue in PvP events. I’ve suggested before that the max points you get for hitting in PvP should be different in each league. What I mean is if 130 points is the most you can get for hitting the highest level on a team in D1, then the highest level on a team in D2 should be worth 120. Then go down from there.


#227

I think what he’s trying to say as far as global prizing is that the top TEAM performances would score higher. So no, sandbagging wouldn’t help because you aren’t scoring against the people in your underpowered league anymore and would effectively be chasing the highest team score possible - which means a ton of individual effort within that team from all involved.

However - as you can see in the current global positions for individuals, some players can have an extreme influence on what a team’s score would be if a global team prize system was implemented. So you would need to figure out some kind of maximum for individual contribution to that team score.

The way you might do that is have a maximum potential score for an individual/team and then placement would have more to do with time spent reaching those maximums. Like a first come first serve kinda thing. That way, even if your top spenders reaches let’s say the top individual score minus the bonus scores you can reach Individually, the rest of the team is also in a fight against the clock and their own limitations to reach the same goal and the teams who hit the goal first are how you break up the ties. Obviously, you would set the potential score pretty high for spenders, but not entirely out of reach of those who don’t so that timing can play more of a role in those placements and that one person wouldn’t be the deciding factor.

I’ve said this in regard to numerous issues including war (assist limits & flame based defense points) that there shouldn’t be a limit on individual progress gained through spending, but the effect that spending has on teams should be limited. One player or a few shouldn’t be able to carry a team against a well prepared team that utilizes teamwork and gives maximum effort per their weight class. Sandbagging is a problem because they have few to zero set limits as to what they can do for a team. One player can technically back 49 others for war and even if at some point that isn’t feasible to make progress by doing it - it’s still being done.

This would at least allow for a chance to outscore a sandbag. And give much more accurate team placements in events, wars, and beyond.


#228

Alrighty then. Let’s start.

I 100% agree that an elite2play player should be capable of reaching end game content (N tier) with an exceptional amount of free play activity juuuuuuuust before a new tier is released. Conditions:

  • The E2P player is exceptionally active. Call it an arbitrary 8hr/day doing in game activities/runs/etc the entire time
  • The E2P player is in an end game tier league (D1/2 or S1 for instance). Players in less than end game leagues should expect to get slightly less results, (aka sapphire could get halfway through N-1, platinum to N-1, etc). I think the incentives for leagues should be increased quite a bit, and lots of progression items given through this avenue.
  • The E2P player is SMART about where they use their resources. Whether it’s wood/food packs obtained, PvP items, embers, or rubies in general. Planning should give them an edge on the competition and the ability to further their progress. Not blowing gold chests during the breeding event and expecting to do well in PvP as an example.

This goes hand in hand with the goal i’ve always been campaigning for:
Reducing the gap between E2P and P2W players
The GPF members can all confirm that this is what I’ve really been striving for, and I’m not at all against giving more items to people who work for them. I’m not against it at all.

Now to go back to your point about me coming to the defense of PG and telling people they are being greedy. THEY ARE. They are asking for handouts. I DON’T WANT THAT.
What I want is for some excellent form of activity based progression enhancer. Not a daily bounty harbor style “log in 1 time per day and get instant progression”. No. Duck that.
I want something to be implemented where folks can spend a meaningful amount of time in the game, doing activities that will reward them for their time. A place where you can progress fast enough to reach near end game content with an absurd amount of time spent. Where that balance is, is TBD.

Paying player can supplement this time required with gold chests and buying items, but this shouldn’t quadruple the progress that an E2P player can make. There has to be a balance of time spent vs $$ spent. $$ spent should also not overshadow skills and flying techniques.

So i’m not sure what this has to do with the topic at all, and not sure why you called me out here but I felt the need to interject, especially when called out in a topic that I wasn’t even involved in or wanting to participate in.


#229

This is a great point, I was having this in my mind and how to make it understandable to read for our fellow forum readers.
Read and do something with that pg :partying_face::sunglasses:


#230

You must not know PG very well…


#231

:thinking:
:laughing:


#232

And maybe he can be POTUS one day too. :joy:

But back on topic (whatever it is, it appears to have morphed over the last 200 posts). I am strictly E2P, playing for approx. 2.5 years. Currently L232. I will be breeding Harbs next event, Vanguards in the fall (despite spending my first 80-90 levels pissing into the wind). I am pretty content with my development, as I see myself making forward progress. Would I like to see faster progression? Sure…but at the same time, I don’t want to ever get to end game. What’s the point? It’s about the journey.

The mistake many people are making is that they are so intensely focused on the horizon, they forget that their real competition are those directly ahead of them. I am content because I do not compare myself to the Dreads of the world, but rather to those 10 or 20 levels ahead of me. My base and drags are better than 95% of those, so I’m happy. My advice: Stop with this insane fixation on the top 1%. PG will continue to provide new content, as they need to keep these statistical outliers in the game. We do too, as they provide a great source of revenue required to keep the game going.

The other bit of this is that folks are directing their anger at the top teams, rather than the peeps responsible for creating the issues they perceive to be unfair. Absent cheating, hate the game, not the teams or the players.


#233

I think this holds true for the core game to some extent. Atlas not so much. But then we’re into what different players get out of the game.

If you are happy with “My base and dragons are better than that other person’s who is similar in level to me,” and don’t care about anything else, there is nothing wrong with that. But neither is there anything wrong with being unhappy that “I can’t defend against those attacking me at all, nor can I successfully attack them back” and being punished by game mechanics simply for not having a bigger base or more relevant dragons.

And as happy as you might be focusing on the competition that is directly ahead of you, when those far beyond that come to your castle door, you are not happy to let them take your castle. You call the teammates that can hit them, and if needed, those in your 5ta, and if that won’t work, you call bigger friends (general you, not specific you, you specifically might be happy to let people take your castles for all I know. LMAO).

This thread has has morphed only insofar as all of these issues are highly interconnected.


#234

I am perhaps doe-eyed in my outlook, in that it is a rare occurrence (for me) to be pitted against a foe so over my level that I have been unable to launch a less than laughable defence or revenge. Sure I have been hit by L400s in game looking for an easy egg mission, but so what, nothing of any value is lost there, and its very infrequent. It does piss me off though when a whale infiltrates a planned glory swap in NML and annihilates my troops for shitty glory, and I do believe that glory mechanics need to change to prevent such douchebaggery (please further tighten the glory bands and penalize revives), but again, it is infrequent. I have a good recollection for those instances, and funnily, I have never been the victim of someone on a top D1 team. Perhaps they have greater discipline, perhaps they have nothing to prove, but for whatever the reason, it hasn’t been them being the bully.

I have also been fortunate not to have had to answer the castle door to see a horribly overpowered team at the threshold holding an eviction notice. Posts in this thread appear to imply that this is commonplace, but again, I suspect it is very rare, as the incidence rate as reported on the forums is likely a significant exaggeration of the world that is Atlas. Why do people believe plane crashes are far more common than they are? Because it is reported every time there is one.

As an Atlas noob, I did witness a D1 team attempt to take over a Saph1 team’s castle as it was being handed over to a Plat team. But it had nothing to do with the Plat team, but rather a score to settle with the Saph1 team. In that battle, a bigger allied D1 team did step in to permit the Plat team to take the castle they had paid for. After that, the castle was left in peace.

The larger point of my post was that there’s a ton of moaning that a particular player, or a particular team, will never be able to rise to the 1% - that the odds are stacked too much against them. Simply put, that is life. 99.9999% of us will never be Olympic athletes, but we praise them, we do not bemoan them. Why? Because we know that they put in the time, effort and money (yes, money, don’t kid yourself how expensive it is to develop an Olympic athlete) to reach their end game. The same is true in WD - 99% of us don’t rise to the top because we don’t put in the time, effort and money to get there, and, much like the Olympic athlete, we shouldn’t expect to. Instead, we should be setting our sights on attainable goals. We’ll be much happier.


#235

This! Anyone hitting for reduced glory should take a revive hit too in NML.


#236

Yes but there’s no reason not to, right? If a P2 or P1 team consistently places around 15th in events each week but they’d take rank 1 in P3 or P4 with the same or less effort, why wouldn’t they? The game basically encourages it. It’s also quite easier to personally score well in PvP. A level 300 in P4 != a level 300 in P1.

I’ve normally been against sandbagging but I find it difficult to criticize people for doing what’s in their best interests. It’s absurd to expect people to put themselves in disadvantageous positions.

I’d be okay with N-2 at this rate :confused: it’s quite the slog


#237

Interesting read…

I’m all for the strong being at the top, that’s the way it should be. What I do see however is that the stronger the top the more it pushes others down, which means more sapphire teams pushing down into lvl 3/2 because they want what their strength can hold, nothing wrong with that…

If level 4 and 5’s are the penthouses and lvl 3’s the suburbs and the middle class (sapphire), then the middle class will be forced into taking over the “ghetto” (lvl2).

This means that there is will be a limited number of houses for the low income and more living on the streets. This in turn means less viable players sticking it out and growing stronger, everyone knows that the chances of getting out of the slums is an uphill battle most don’t make, which means a smaller pool of players from which to recruit and fill the attrition at the top, which in the end means a dilution of the middle class.

That is a deteriorating civilization.

:thinking: might be off on the comparison a bit, but I think the overall premise remains true.


#238

I’m just happy to see where this thread has ended up- with so many reasonable views based on a good understanding of the game as a whole.
We’ve gone from complaining about each other’s views to realizing that we are all doing the best we can within the world we are provided.
I don’t know, y’all think we should have the moderators close this thread and move on with life? :partying_face:


#239

Or, I dunno. Maybe PG reads the relevant portions of this, admits that Altas is in a terrible stalemate situation, and actually take concrete steps to improve things other than futzing around with revive rates and glory bands???

Maybe starting with the annoying glory sniping on targets 130 levels lower than their own? Folks wouldn’t have to resort to this if there were actual castle battles outside of Dread making a move.


#240

Appreciate that Mech. Agree 100%

I tied it all together in my last post here I think. Because as I believe all of these issues come down to this fundamental problem. The pay/skill+time gap is too large, and fixing it would go a long way towards fixing other issues in the game. There’s just too many overlaps as far as what is wrong with the game currently, you can’t just fix one thing at a time without creating some kind of imbalance so it all needs to be looked at and I think many changes need to be made all at once.


#241

Say it again! :muscle:


#242

I think you’re assuming that a significant amount of players involve themselves in the forums - they do not.

Also, a game should never be compared or have such a money blockade as to be compared to training an Olympian. This is a video game, and if you put in the time, are in the correct league, and pay a small amount of money every month (E2P) - you should absolutely reach end-game content before (even if slightly before) they drop the next wave of content.