Den cap limitations

There has been much talk of seasonal dragons overshadowing lineage dragons, especially at lower levels, and I think part of the reason for this is den caps. I’m only level 120, so I’m not talking about end game or even later game, but I’ve noticed this consistently across the tiers up to sapphire.

Currently, my strongest dragons are Avyx with 6.1M AP unboosted (10.4 boosted) and Necryx with 4.1M AP (8.1M). Yet Rizar is den capped at level 19 with only 3M AP (5M). They all have riders with negligible differences and decent runes. Why? This has happened to me at every tier. Dragons are so capped that by the time I move up enough levels to uncap them so they are useful or even on par with divines, I have already bred the next tier rendering them obsolete. Amarok was replaced by Hugin before I could expert him, Whale/Cons were overshadowed by Rizar, and now Rizar is useless because I have Sekhem (well, not completely useless as I can use him to clean up farms, but just not as powerful in general). By the time I can get Rizar expert, I’ll have Hauheset.

Since the advent of strong seasonal dragons, and the fact that this system has been this way since the beginning (I assume), I propose adding a couple of extra dragon levels to the current dencaps at the lower levels where divines really outperform lineage dragons. These dragons are not as strong as they used to be. It would not break the game if my Rizar were to be level 22 or something right now instead of 19, since that would still leave him weaker than divines. But maybe I would actually use him more.

Now, I don’t want to interfere with what levels dragons become breedable and minimum level requirements for breeding the next tier, so this shouldn’t happen in the early stages. But past breedable in the mid to later stages, adding a couple of extra levels before it’s capped again is, I think, reasonable. It seems a simple way to maybe get more use out of our lineage dragons before they get benched without greatly impacting anything else.

What do you think?

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I think it depends a lot on the level range how bad this is. On my mini at level 28, Equestor was by far the strongest thing I had. Now at level 38, den-capped Amarok can keep up pretty well.

On my main, from level 40 to 64 so far, the green legendary dragons are on par with the divines since I hit my den cap.

I’m not even there yet, but at 84 there’s a huge leap in den caps, I expect my divines to be much stronger for a bit around then. Expert Whalegnawer still seems to be a match for den-capped Avyx at that level, but putting 28 million xp into Whale will take a lot longer than putting 7.5 million into Avyx, especially since I got Avyx a lot earlier.

Can’t really speak for the 100-200 “low” level range, but sub-100 I think it’s not too bad.

hmm I dont know about that, Im only at green tier and my legendaries are giving Avyx a challenge.

Looking at the stats lineage seem to actually keep up with divines, in fact even overshadowing them. It seems unfair to compare sapphire Avyx to plat Rizar. Tier to tier lineage dragons win.

What we should be complaining about is the amount of work needed (XP) for lineage dragons compared to divines! :sob::sob:

From my experience I got hau and rizar was expert by then. At your level you shouldn’t worry too much as the breeding will get slow and you’ll have time to expert all of them. In the overall I agree with you. When I uncapped rizar to expert he was 5M and necryx 11M, rizar should have gotten expert way sooner to be useful as for one to get max XP it required around 30 something M defense to do so :crazy_face:

If you’re ahead on breeding, there will be a point where your lineage dragons are actually a lot stronger than your divines. I forget what level it was in the lowish 100s, but I had sapphire dragons that were a lot stronger than my divnes, which were still stuck in platinum tier due to den caps.

Shouldn’t your divines be uncapped as soon s you got sapphires though? :thinking:

Not if you are a low level. Mine were capped by den level, not dragons bred

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Nope, I got sapphires fairly early, but the den caps didn’t allow my divines to go high enough to evolve into sapphire tier. I haven’t yet had to wait on breeding in order to continue leveling my divines :blush: they’re always waiting on my player level to advance, but I’m playing a long game, not a sprint to the next level.

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Ok, never had that situation before :sweat_smile:

I try to do the same, level 149 and hatched frostbiter last week :grin: but unblocking Den it’s handy so divines perform better in PvP. Hard call 🤷

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Yes, should have mentioned that my divines are capped at platinum until level 137. Which is why I compared them to Rizar instead of Sekhem.
So the strongest same tier lineage dragon has half the power.

It appears this only seems to be a problem if your breeding is ahead of your level :woman_shrugging: Still annoying :joy:

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It’s actually more simple than that: seasonal divines are used to give lower players a chance to experience high tier spells, which in turn makes dragons seem extremely over powered

In line with Enigma’s comments, I think divines are truly necessary to compensate for the newer towers, especially at lower levels. An elemental tower rich short base in the level 60s makes short work of expert green legendaries when defended, and expert gold legendaries have trouble taking good bases in the 70s when defended. They were designed in the days when the highest damage a dragkn could face was from an archer tower or a group of supershotted lightning towers. A Dark Flak with two mages and a storm just is a whole different level.

Without divines, players between level 50 and level 140 would be hard put to take out good bases near their level. The divines fill this gap. They compensate for the change in base design, with their more powerful and rage efficient spells, and often higher base attack stats. They also reduce the need of having to spend hours upon hours in mind numbing grinding, trying to get xp for a dragon that will be left behind after a few weeks or months of use.

How to actually fix the lineage dragons is something I am not sure how to do. It would be nice to find a way to revamp the lowers tiers, though

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I completely agree with you as far as the purpose of divines. I’m not asking for them to be weaker, I’m asking for our lineage dragons to be stronger so we can get use out of them and not have to rely on divines. Maybe letting us train them to their full potential by revamping the ridiculous den caps would be a good start?

Whether or not they just “seem” overpowered in comparison doesn’t really matter because this trend will only continue and they will keep getting stronger while lineage dragons will stay the same.

I mean, if PG wants to switch out some cannon resists for flak/ice, I’m cool with that but it’s not gonna happen. :joy:

Don’t need divines to beat such bases. And don’t need expert lineage either. Just need to fly better.

Whale will make short work of any level 70s base defended or not. Ettin would too.

That’s why I advocate to keep flying lineage. They make you fly better as yes they don’t have high level spells like seasonal divines.

Absolutely true. I’m a level 64 now and my level 18 Ettin can at least 70% clear strong short bases up to high 60s if I don’t mess up. At least up to a single defender who isn’t full speed hammer spamming, but it’s very rare to get multiple spamming defenders at my level. Undefended strong short bases can be cleared up to mid 70s.

I need a few more weeks before I can try Whale, but I expect him to do just as well as my Ettin on the hard bases.

Reasons low-level lineage dragons suck have mostly been covered (high leveling requirements, bad resists, designs balanced against pre-elemental towers), but I’d add the growing need to hit above your level. If you could hit level 50s as a level 50 back when gold tier was top tier, that was great. Nowadays, the state of matchmaking means that you have a lot more pressure to hit higher.

There’ve been a few threads about how to fix lower divines; I think the OP’s idea is half of the best idea: XP requirements should be lowered, too. Lineage dragons take much longer to level to caps than divines, and with their starting lower usefulness are likely to see less combat. They also have small windows of usefulness. Making it possible to get them to a useful level before they’re obsolete would go a long way.

It’d be nice to give them spell rebalances and change the resists, too, but I think rescaling levels alone would be sufficient to get them in flight again.

The power of your divines vs your lineage dragons all depends on how fast you level up compared to how much time you spend training your dragons. The only things that sets my divines apart at all are some of the the white spells, other than that, every divine in my lineup has just about the same attack power as my seasonals. People tend to commit more time into their divines, perhaps this is why they always end up seeming more powerful.

I dropped expert whale on my base while I was in the 70s…

Last I checked, though, Gold Avyx could still solo me while defending

Bad flyer. Sorry. :man_shrugging:

Edit: IIRC max tower in the 70s is level 27? I think that’s a 3 shot or 4 shot kill for an expert whale? Someone verify?

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