Dragon/Tower Balance/Growth (WIP)

Hello nubs. 'Tis I.

So I was inspired to make this little spreadsheet due to the events that transpired these past few days. I was also inspired to make it because going from Garnet to mid-Harbinger is the absolute worst experience in the entire game. It is dreadful on all fronts.

Without further ado, I present to you the :lemon:sheet.

In this sheet, I’ve gone and collected some data that was pulled directly from the game files to help better illustrate a couple things.

  1. DPS/\Health growth between tiers for dragons and towers. Might need to fix this as I used Dark Flak damage per second and Dark Flak damage per shot in different tables. The calculations were all done with damage per second though.

  2. The charts/graphs on the left illustrate how dragon and tower stats interact at various stages of the game. The intended values are the values that PG has listed as being balance points for dragons and towers. The actual values are the values the players experience due to the phenomenon in which dragons lag behind the base significantly until you get close to endgame. This can be observed in every chart where the slope of the line drops drastically immediately after Garnet and does not experience a positive trend until around Mythic Vanguard. This is true for both lineage and divines.

  3. The first chart on the left, Tangerine, is calculated from the following figures. I took the the health of a divine, in this case Narlyth, at the final level before it either evolves to the next tier or evolves to mythic status of a tier (Legendary Harb vs Mythic Harb) and divided it by the dps of a Dark Flak at whatever level the endgame towers were/are at that point (60s for Legendary Harbs, 65s for Mythic Harbs). I know 60s used to be Mythic Obsidian but that has since changed. I then did the same thing but for the Dark Flak health and dragon dps. Dividing these two by each other gives the equation: (Dragon HP/DFDPS)/(DFHP/Dragon DPS). This simplifies to (Dragon HPDragon DPS)/(DFHPDFDPS). This further simplifies to Dragon AP/DF DP. The number shown is that ratio.

  4. I did the same thing but accounted for being able to build towers higher than the previous endgame would have allowed for at a lower level (building 60s at level 260 or 65s by 324). The ratio shown is what the actual interaction is between dragons and towers as players level up.

  5. Same chart as number 3 but for lineage dragons. Self explanatory.

  6. Same chart as number 4 but for lineage dragons. Self explanatory.

  7. Do not interpret this to mean a dragon might be 4x stronger than a base. Interpret this to mean that if say “Vanguard was the perfect balance between dragons and towers,” whatever the number is for those 2 tiers, Legendary and Mythic, is the point where dragons and towers are equal. So you would set it to 1 by dividing it (and all the other data points) by the value it shows so you can see what areas have a higher or lower dragon balance then intended. You would then apply this retroactively in some capacity by either adjusting stats of tiers, towers, or levels at which you can build or level towers/dragons. Not a simple or easy fix, but a good one. If dragons are still too strong, it’s a problem with the spells. Can be dealt with on a case by case basis. Some dragons also just suck, like Gladicus. But it’ll only suck as much as it was meant to.

  8. The first chart on the right, Lemon, is a direct ratio between a dragons health/dps and a towers health/dps at any given point between level 45 and level 470. Since it is a ratio of dragons vs towers, a downward trend indicates the dragons are weaker relative to towers at that player level. An upward trend indicates dragons being stronger at a given player level. This chart is also formatted to fit the actual experience of progressing through the game. Once again, right at the Garnet evolution stone-mark, dragons take an enormous drop in strength that doesn’t quite recover until Mythic Vanguard.

  9. The next one down, Lime, is a similar concept to the one above it, but this chart shows how health relates to incoming damage for both dragons and towers. I like this chart a lot because the graph curves and flips on itself at various stages. Again, at the Garnet evolution-mark the dragon health line starts to drop but it comes back up! The reason for this is shown in the tower stat increase table. Flakgate resulted in tower health continuing to increase at the same rate while damage dropped considerably. The flak damage drop causes a brief comeback for dragon health before it drops again when you get into obsidian; and it drops HARD (indicated by the near vertical line at around the level 260 mark).

  10. The final chart, Grapefruit, is a graph showing the relationship of a dragons HP and damage relative to a Dark Flaks HP and damage. The higher the number, the stronger the dragons. For like the 69th time, Garnet evolution happens and dragon stats drop like a rock compared to the towers you need to fight at that level. Recovers a bit at Mythic Vanguard again.

  11. I checked the lowest point for the Lemon, Lime, and Grapefruit graphs. Dragons are at their absolute weakest point at around level 318 if you ignore some funky stuff that happens in orange-gold. The funky stuff there is due to divines only having like 1 level in the lower tiers so things either balloon a lot or deflate a lot.

  12. Immediately after Vanguard tier, towers actually received a buff over the dragons of that tier, which was Empyrean. This continued through to Abyssal. Towers have not been this strong since Emerald/Obsidian? (Obsidian makes 0 sense. Like absolutely 0 sense in the entire scheme of this game). Probably Emerald. Vanguard was, in fact, NOT the best balance point for towers/dragons if you’re under the impression towers are weaker now (they’re not. Even without base boost).

My conclusions are that dragons are probably a bit stronger across the board than whatever towers they’re meant to be balanced for. Garnet-Vanguard has a stupid problem where you can unlock towers designed for dragons 2 tiers above what you have and dragons turn into paper immediately. Flaks/towers under 60 are beyond broken. Even with the nerfed damage they’re still annihilating all dragons in their level bracket.

Attempting to fix endgame by giving all towers across the board a buff without addressing the Garnet-Vanguard fiasco will create untold amounts of strife among the low-mid levels. It’s already difficult enough to fight people your level because your dragons are severely handicapped. I mean come on, you can have a full island of 65s at level 324 but you can’t have dragons that are balanced for them until 396. That’s 4 levels short of being able to HATCH dragons from 2 tiers up. That’s so beyond broken. By that time, your dragons that are balanced for 65s have to fight level 75-77 towers.

Sorry if this droned on a bit. I’m tired and cranky. If there are other questions I’ll do my best to answer.

17 Likes

Otherwise, well done, Zest. I hope this helps everyone understand how effed tower-dragon balance is. :rofl:

6 Likes

Should have reserved a slot for edits. KATE THEEF.

Sept 7 2019 Edit: Toned colors down for those with weak eyeballs.

Sept 9 2019 Edits: Changed some chart titles for clarity and included explanations for what the calculations were and what the data means for those charts. Also added 6 more charts at the bottom because Narlyth got nerfed into oblivion before it was even released.

4 Likes

I inspired this edit. :triumph:

Or you could just tack it onto the end of your post like normal people do. :eyes:

Looking at your graphs- it does kind of indicate numerical trends that don’t run parallel with that discussion on perceived trends going on with PGAwal, yeah?

Do you think there’s anything that could be contributing to that; for instance the release of the base boost, or mythic gear, or Namaka OP, or garnet research, or other stuff that I’m not thinking about?

3 Likes

I’m sure those of us with weak eyeballs are very appreciative of you toning down the colors :sweat_smile:

3 Likes

Yeah it’s actually contradictory to that. Interesting stuff.

I think it’s the strength of the spells from a literal numbers standpoint such as 15% vs 10%, but also synergistic strength of spells. Lusian is absolutely insane. Seraph is not. Archon is probably outside my area of expertise but it seems to be pretty strong.

This should only help towers. I ran all the numbers using only base stats so further boosts such as base boost, gear, and runes should actually exacerbate the already upward trend of towers at endgame but that’s apparently not the case.

5% more health for towers is basically written off by 5% more damage from dragons. Non-factor IMO.

Namaka is interesting for sure. Lightnings really do a number on her. Anything else has a bad time.

Invokers as a whole are probably more problematic than a specific Divine. The intentional release of fewer support things for them was offset by PG increasing their base stats by a good amount. Now we have/will have a problem where things that buff stats have an enormous impact on invokers because of gargantuan base stats.

This should also only be helping towers, not making it worse.

No evidence to support this but I’m pretty sure when PG had people playtest dragons, they had bases equipped with baseboost so the spell stats were scaled based on that. This would mean all the dragons spells have a base boost equivalent buff built-in to them which negates the base boost if you have it, or results in a base nerf if you don’t.

:eyes:

1 Like

This is the toned down version? My eyes bleed for what it was.

Think lime green, neon yellow, and neon orange :3

2 Likes

But you’re still here commenting on the forums of this “shit” game :roll_eyes: makes a lot of sense.

As has been brought up in the past in a thread about scaling; obsidian and even baby harb sucked to fly through. With max elite gear, the legendary and mythic glyphs from his line and 3 mythic attack runes, Ronin could not execute a kill island of 60s of similar gear and boosts…which I had for 50 or 60 player levels or literally 3 forts to get out of with aggressive leveling of 20 to 30 levels a fort. Around player level 348 or so I can feel the dragon catching up to the bases I face. Feels better at 382 but the slog from 260ish to 382 is long…

I tried to do a quote from Morreion from 5 Jun in a thread about Ronin being weak but alas I’m not forum savy.

Blockquote Yeah, a 60 DF has 35.4% of the health of an 80 DF.

Max Obsidian Ronin has 17.3% of the damage/sec of a max Empyrean Ronin.

No wonder the Empyrean flyers are fine, their Ronin is literally twice as powerful compared to the towers they face.

If any empyrean flyers want to know what obsidian tier Ronin flies like, just take off your rider and boosts (leaving just the +57% or so from runes and research), and you’ll have a Ronin as strong on 80s as my max gear Ronin is on 60s.

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