"End Game" Conversation

posting from other thread:


There was a clear mistake in how ember cost was adjusting per level. I believe we came out and adjusted the cost of the high tiers and compensated individuals. Is that accounted for in your suggestion?

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Rune removal is in the backlog as mentioned in previous posts. Its a high priotity and will have more info on when it will come out at a later date


These are in the other thread as topics


Though I agree with this, what are the criteria/scenarios? league, team ranking, personal scoring, team quests, team achievements, stored resources, activity level, etc.

And what would change? Does the season need to get more or less expensive? Do prizes need to be adjusted up or down and where? Do chests need to get adjusted?

And how is excessive spending defined? $1 is excessive spending to F2P/E2P only :stuck_out_tongue:


First off, thank you for taking the time to hear our concerns and for giving us a forum to speak directly to you.

I’d like to talk about endgame in a different way. How about keeping the players we have as well as attracting new players to the game. Recently, there was a PGCanWeTalk initiative put forth that people put a lot of effort into to try and improve the economy of the game that involved what rss were in chest drops as well as token costs and as somewhat previously mentioned moving runes from dragons. While I would like to be able to remove runes, i’m personally more concerned with the waning player base and think the two things mentioned could help those along with potentially increasing RSS in packs.

As someone previously said, the analogy was made about us making the same money, but our groceries costing more each time. Have you all given any thoughts to increasing rubies, chests etc in packs as well as increasing the rss in chest drops while also getting rid of some of the worthless rss as previously mentioned. At one point a big pack got 25k rubies and now its 35k rubies. It seems like it was forever ago that that change was made. I feel this will also help E2P, F2P, and light to moderate spenders. It costs approximately 1500 days of timers to take a tower from level 1 to 85. If someone buys the $99 pack during PvP which is the best value pack, you get approximately 125 days worth of timers meaning you need 12 packs or $1200 for one new tower and that is of course only going to get worse as tower levels continue to increase. I feel if you would increase the RSS in packs and improve chest contents and drops, people would be more likely to stay in the game and more of the light to moderate spenders would buy packs as they feel like they are actually getting something to show for their money.
Currently 125 days of timers, so a $99 pack basically gets a higher, but not end game player 1 level as its approximately 40 days per tower upgrade and about 3 upgrades per level.

We also obviously need the E2P and F2P players to just have a big enough player base to continue the game. Because of the huge costs, its basically impossible for a new person to start this game and get anywhere near end game without spending an exorbitant amount of money. Even one 5 tower kill island would basically cost someone $6k from scratch. Who is going to tell their friend, I’m playing this great game with awesome graphics where you get to meet friends, blow up stuff, and shoot other people down that are trying to kill you. All you need is $6k-$12k to compete and get started

This kind of leads me to my next roadblock in the game which is for anyone that wants to expand their base. I have 10 maxed towers on my base, and would love to get 5 more so I have 15 towers but I don’t want to spend $5k or $6k to do so. I am one of those light to moderate spenders that buys a couple packs a month and all the elites. But at this point, I’m coming to the realization that if nothing changes, I will just have to be happy with 10 maxed out towers which I can maintain by buying a pack every few months. What the math is to make it fair and have a better economy of scale is left to the people way better at math than me, but I do think for the sake of the entire game, something should be done to keep people interested, feel like their time and money is fairly rewarded and to try and attract new players by making it someone reasonable with either extreme grinding and some spending that they can achieve a semblance of end game.


It is partially addressed with the most recent adjustment. However as mentioned on our earlier discussion, there still need to be a basis of linear progression in terms of cost in relations to N tier. We have touched on this on many instance earlier. It has to either be an N tier cap or chest drop rate adjustment. I do believe adjusting chest drop rate over time with each new N tier would be a more complicated solution as oppose to capping cost requirements to N tier (Leaving the current pack/chest drop rate constant)

Of note. Not all currencies in game requires tier based discount. Ember is one such if you are able to capped it off. Tier based discount is more relevant with breeding tokens and timers as this two are an example where there are “walls”. As long as all cost currencies and requirements in game are made entirely LINEAR progressively towards N tier CAP with no walls, there isn’t even a need for tier based discount. However this would require a complete overhaul and revamp of all cost structure within the game (To remove any cost that involves walls and non linear currently). Tier based discount is only a partial quick fix with the current walls in place.

Linear progression has to be a true linear progression with no spikes. The idea is to push and encourage all players to move towards end tier and not feel there is a decreasing value in their spending within the game. This would also allow the game to be more friendly towards all spectrums of player base (e2p, f2p, spenders, mega whalers) and thus players retention.


This is previously not even acknowledged by PG. It is good to see now that it is a high priority. I understand PG has something in the works on this recently but it has to come sooner. The disparity of how runes are being removed and granted through the current support ticket system does not allow fair play. Add in speculations to it, you get much discontent when certain players have their runes are removed while others are not. (Even within the same team)

Player base are only asking for an avenue for runes to be removed from their dragons. It can be in term of rubies with increasing removal cost with each rune rarity classification or it can be the idea PG is currently working on. But fact is this has been asked for a long time, and it has to come sooner. Let’s have the first iteration to remove rune and glyphs from dragon out first with reasonable cost and we can always work towards balancing this cost vs PG’s concern of rune removal effects on revenue vs rune dust balance on a later date.

End of the year feels just too far out of a wait for this much requested feature.


Definition of “End Game” revolves around several factors imo.

End game play happens mostly in the highest league of any games. (The rest are sandbagging)

So a player in end game would preferably be classified as:

  1. Being in N tier with N tier’s full unlock
  2. Tower level based on N tier (Lvl 88 to 90 Currently)
  3. A mid long base that ends at Island 6 with 2 perches (Island 1 being closest to Castle/Den)
  4. Offensive and Defensive gear at near max Elite 90%/90%

The above is a true end game classification. Dragon AP would be around 9.0B+ Base DP would be 15B+

Then you have the Semi end game group. This group would have fully unlock N tier as well. However they are mostly e2p players with occasional spendings. Their dragons would be bordering 9B as well. Their base would be a shorter base ending around Island 3 or Island 5 with N tier towers (88 to 90) with filler lower legacy towers on Island 4. They will have 2 sets of near max offensive elites gears and 1 set of near max elite defensive gear.

Players that are bordering to unlock N tier IS NOT end game.


Appreciate all this commentary - I intend to start working through this next week and hopefully coming to clear next steps for the conversation.


For reference
Updated 9/6/2019 840pm EST



@MurderBNumbers for reference, are your endgame numbers based on JLs interpretation?

No, those numbers are players level 455+ which was max emp divine evo

Would need re-done at level 475 for this most recent release

and or again for whatever level is a base full of max towers

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For ref, my interpretation of base DP is based on tower lvl 85. It would have to add around + 2.0 to 3 billion DP if its Lvl 90. Just want to clarify.


For embers in particular we did analysis on earn rate and adjusted costs to be oriented towards that. The cap for N only is true if the earn rate for N is capped also, which isnt true for all sources and isnt true as we introduce new features. We want the cost of things to have a strong relationship to the earn rate of players at that level of progression.