League structure roadblocks

I’ve seen a good amount of hemming and hawing regarding rebalancing of dragons and spells and towers. Many of those concerns may be legitimate, but I’m surprised that nobody seems to mention that the leagues need fixing. I don’t want this to sound like a rant or anything, but I think that what I will describe has created a lot of frustration for players who find they simply can’t advance according to their efforts. Instead of any semblance of a meritocracy, they are stuck in a payitoffcracy due to infeasible league advancement. I’d be interested to hear thoughts for or against this.

Now regarding the leagues…

Last year, the leagues were changed… once. Some thought it was for the better, but I am not convinced. We ended up with a capped number of players able to earn higher league payouts. This higher caste may not be complaining, because the higher payouts help ensure their position. But for others the structure is a hindrance to team advancement.

I think leagues need to get elevated with each incremental dragon tier - we’ve now gotten Obsidian dragons. OK, well, I haven’t gotten any, but someone has. The point is, we are still limited to diamond and sapphire leagues at the top. Where’s the Garnet League, and the Emerald League, and the Obsidian League? For all the talk about balancing, I think this is a real disconnect.

The people now flying obsidian dragons were in all likelihood already in Diamond or Sapphire Leagues back when they were getting their Sapphire dragons. Sapphire League payouts are really high in comparison to lower leagues. 800 daily tokens vs 175 in Gold.

But today, most teams in Gold leagues have multiple players working on getting their Sapphire Dragons. Advancing their teams to get higher earnings is difficult because the player counts per league are fixed, and there’s nowhere (i.e. no new league tiers) for the top players to move up. In addition to the daily tokens I previously mentioned, there are also similar proportions of event team and individual prizes. So scraping together 200k egg tokens for a dragon may not be so difficult in the top leagues, but it’s an enormous undertaking in Gold or Platinum.

I think this is a root cause of the Sapphire Wall being a problem so many players complain about. I also think that allowing players who committed a lot of time and money to the game to get discouraged and quit because moving up as a team is no longer as feasible as it once was is a mistake. There should be more to advancing than just being among the players who started the game early enough to have garnered a seat at the top.

In my opinion, adding new league tiers commensurate with new dragon tiers would allow all teams to progress to higher rewards in conjunction with the stronger dragons and higher spending (I’m referring to egg tokens, timers, speedups, etc., not just cash) required to leverage the dragons from those higher tiers. I won’t claim this will solve everything, but I think it would help keep a lot of players in the game who are otherwise getting discouraged by just being stuck… Sure, the same top players will move up and maintain the top positions, but middle and lower players will still have the opportunity to continue to advance if they can get to higher tier payouts. Also, PG could roll out positions in the top leagues in stages so that even the top teams would have the opportunity to race to the new leagues.

Interested to hear others’ thoughts…

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There was also another post mentioning the difference between D1 and Saph1 was a mere 20 rank points. One lost war could drop a D1 team past D2 and into Saphs again. That doesn’t even count the teams in Saphs winning multiple wars and bouncing right over D2.

This definitely needs to be looked at. And expansion up to Garnet or Obsidian league would definitely help the situation. :blush:

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I think the issue is in token missions and overall prizes structures instead of leagues. When I proposed the league structure we now have, I said as much. The token payout should not be any kind of fix for dragon progression. Fixing breed and token payout is what needs to be addressed.

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Progression below sapphire league is pretty painful. Daily tokens drop off pretty rapidly.

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There are plenty of threads that dive into leagues needing fixing. Many off topic, and I don’t think I’ve really noticed PG acknowledging those threads.

I’m sure there are a lot of frustrations, but any game with true competition has them. Not everyone can be number 1. Advancement is not a right. That being said there is a need for some kind of progression to keep the game from getting stale. There are some of these mechanisms in place, but I would agree there is room for improvement.

This undeniably made things better for some, but is also moved the problem. I think there are less people in this same predicament as before. The problem that was identified and improved was that when the game shifted to rank based leagues you had an ever growing bubble to compete with of players who were not good enough to be in the next tier, but were light years better than the newest members of that tier. That problem has been made better, but it still exists.

I think this is just wrong. There was always capped numbers of players. The higher leagues complain probably more than you are or have. I don’t know if anyone thinks rewards are how they should be. The structure is a problem as it doesn’t provide enough incentive to stay at a teams capable level of competition, and has encouraged a lot of sandbagging. I think the himderence is intended as you shouldn’t necessarily be unhindered by comparison to a higher tier, but again it’s currently broken and needs fixing. (Incentive isn’t sufficient all around). Your hindrance is equal to all others in your competition bracket.

So there is a problem with a fixed number of leagues and a dynamic population. It doesn’t scale currently. Sub leagues do help to fix this, but it’s still a manual process to decide new leagues should be added. I also don’t think there is a clear line between where the cutoff is so much as that it is designed to be a pyramid where the closer you are to the top the less teams and the higher the competition.

I think a common misunderstanding is that the tiers between dragons, leagues, and towers have any cooralation. Sapphire leage is not intended to have sapphire dragons. It is more of an expanded version of small, medium, large. Sure the top grouping tends to have more of the latest toys, but there are plenty of diamond players who only have sapphire dragons, and plenty of gold players who have obsidian dragons.

It is also important to recognize that while each player progresses individually, the team progress is not directly tied to any one players progress, but rather the aggregate progress of your team compared to the aggregate progress of your competition.

That’s completely wrong. There are MANY players with obsidian dragons in lesser tiers than diamond. Yes it is true that of the players in diamond many have obsidian dragons, and many of those players probably had sapphire dragons when they were new, Rewards for being in a higher tier needs to be better than rewards for not, or else why bother advancing? I agree that helps the strong stay strong, but that’s why there are leagues, to ensure the strong compete against other strong players. The leagues provide steps to help you ease up from tier to tier if you can grow your competition at a rate that is faster than your competition can. At some point you will find the step/league that you cannot get past, and either you stay there defending your turf, or you find a way to improve. Of corse a player may need to move up without his team if he desires progression but his or her team cannot keep up with his competition.

Again, there is no correlation between league tiers and dragon tiers. It’s more of a small,medium, and large. Not all players with large dragons are intended to be in the large league.

Egg tokens are intended to be hard to get. They are the single most limiting resource, and they limit the flow of the game for all tiers. If you have elite and collect the seasonal egg token doubler and use your egg missions you make a much larger impact than even being in diamond can be.

As I said before I do think value of things is broken. All new content the value is intentionally high, because it’s valuable. But as content ages the value is difficult and time consuming to adjust. I personally don’t think gold dragons are worth the amount of tokens that they cost, and I think that is even more so the case with sapphire dragons. However if you use a breeding path you can more than make up for this at the gold tier. Sapphire is somewhat harder to overcome and I find it hard to believe even a paid player would find much value in progressing without a breeding path. (Having a cheaper mapped out breeding plan rather than just unlocking the next dragon that you can breed)

I disagree. I don’t see any compelling reason to add and remove leagues or to have them correlate to dragon tiers. Maybe they should be renamed so they lead to less confusion. At any time Diamond is meant to be the top tier of competition of the game. Sapphire is designed to be the next tier in the pyramid, platinum the next, and so on until you hit the base of the pyramid which is bronze.

Also let’s play devils advocate and say we did add a new league. Ignoring the high overhead of doing this, top 25 teams will still be the same. (Ignoring bronze too) Net result is that nothing changes but the name of the league and token payoff. Wouldn’t it be easier to instead suggest token adjustments every time a new tier of dragon was released? I don’t think you would find it to be as many as you want but I can see that happening if done right.

I do agree incentives need to be adjusted desperately. I’ve written a post or two on how to dynamically change the token payout by an algorithm using some calibration points.

It is harder to move up as a team. Since the restructure, a good number of teams I knew and cared for have disbanded. Most players are faced with a choice of either stay together and be in a lower league or leave the team for better payouts.

That’s why I don’t understand why there are posts wanting to pressure high level players to go into the higher leagues. They have chosen to stay with their teams … let them be. :corn:

There is an argument to be made that “league” play and “event play” should be separated.

Aka completely separate pvp and pve systems.

The major drawback of said argument is, that the “PVE” part sometimes contains “PVP” against other teams in the league – and its a lot harder to score points against say Dread, than the XPFarms team, yet the rewards are the same.

Red’s proposal was aimed at addressing a lot of this but unfortunately, it was half implemented.

In its full scope, it will basically increase the “reward” for fighting in higher leagues, because it is that much harder / costly.

And yes this does mean a lvl 300 vs a level 300 in say D1, is a much more costly affair than a lvl 300 vs a level 300 in say Gold2 – usually defended etc.

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It’s actually easier than ever to move up leagues. In general you can move up a league in 2-3 war wins, if you War smart. If you don’t… well that’s your fault.

True. Staying there is the hard part.

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Meh. I’ve only had trouble maintaining with untimely autoboots.

If your members are inactive enough to get booted by the game … you must not have many wars. Most teams remove their non-warring members before the autoboot kicks in.

Not necessarily. If you don’t have someone lined up to fill that spot, it’s better to keep the inactive player there to maintain that 50 player stat to [hopefully] defer wars being declared on you.

We all know every team will pounce on any other team (especially those ranked lower in their league) if down by one or more players, like a lion on a wounded baby zebra.

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Or a toddler on a dirty paci :tired_face:

I’ve actually only had that trouble enough for it to matter recently. With a Christmas and a few things, i had a bunch of players have life crop up all at once. And yeah, we don’t War much. We have seldom needed to. The current structure made it so that we’d have to win 1 war every two weeks or so to stay in Sapphire II

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