Rider for Pathox: Saito or Kazane?

They are different. Which one is better for Pathox?

Saito: +17% Attach, +17% HP, + 1 Ammo
Kazane: +24% Attack, +16% HP

Kazane.

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Can Kazane get her stats that high? I thought you’d have to drop more HP to get attack maxed.

Unless I’m mistaken you just get 8.2% HP on Kazane, making Saito a reasonable option too (HP boosting chill damage). I’d probably still get Kazane though, more unique stats and can be respecced to a great sorc rider too if you ever need one.

Depends on how you use pathox, i guess.

If you frequently empty its ammo, then +1 ammo may come in handy.

If you don’t, then one with better stats boost would be the better choice.

But then… this applies for pretty much every hunter so you probably know this already. :man_shrugging:t2:

Curious about kazanes hp boost if only 8.2 % hp then saito is looking better to me.

Honestly I not sure about that. 1 extra ammo gives you one extra shot when you have max ammo. Outside of that, as far as I know it doesn’t do anything. It’s a little more burst.

But the new rider is like a 10% extra damage boost on every single shot. I don’t know that having one extra shot whenever you happen to hit max ammo is better than having raw damage constantly for pathox.

You do have a point, but…

Unless the buffed stat lets you use one less ammo to destroy a tower, +1 ammo can still be better especially if you constantly suffer from ammo shortage.

I’m not saying +1 ammo is always better than +atk (not saying +atk is always better than +1 ammo either).

Merely pointing out the practicality.

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If they are indeed the exact stats you have listed above, I’d choose Kazane any day.

Why?

Because Kazane has attack where as Saito just sounds like a stage 5 clinger to me with his attach skill

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Saito is 17/11 (or 10.8?) +1
Kazane is 24/9.

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It’s difficult not choosing Saito when you have ice defensive gear…

Kazane.

FWIW, I think saito is better for pathox due to the ammo.

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Sounds like ammo is the key difference. But for me, usually, ammo is not a issue? So, I should go with Kazane?

Does anyone always run out of ammo when using Pathox?

raises hand

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I would say ammo is better for Pathox since most (smart) fliers empty their ammo into buildings before cloaking. Gets that passive going and preps the towers to be finished off by chill.

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So formula would be:

Saito: 17/10.8 +1 ammo
Kazane: 24/9

The different for HP increase is small. I would ignore the difference for chill damage.

For physical Attack, assume the damage of each Attack is 100, and 8 ammo in full. The max damage if using all ammo would be as follow.
With Saito: 100 * 117% * 9 = 1053
With Kazane: 100 * 124% * 8 = 992

Sounds like the Saito could help a lot when I attack a much higher short base (use up ammo as usual). But Kazane can easily clean long base.

Hmmm, sound like Saito is better if I want to challenge myself.

Do 11 attack? Most people have hunter research unless I’m totally out of touch.

Two flaws in that. With research you’ll have 11 shots basic. And with gear and boost you’ll likely be sitting at around 100% more.

So assuming 70% armor and boosts running it’s more like:

With Saito: 100 * 217% * 12 = 2604
With Kazane: 100 * 224% * 11 = 2464

However chill damage will be slightly lower for Saito, so it pretty much balances out.

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TL;DR: Mythic ammo is better than mythic hunter attack. 1 ammo ~ 10% attack give or take. It’s more how you combine your rider with your runes and playstyle. If you use pathox to spectral and chill, more hp is what you want which can be done with runes and riders alike.

What if I were to tell you that both ammo and damage can be expressed as damage? And in both cases it’s a function of how to maximize damage so the tower dies quicker

Now when it comes to pathox there are at least 2 ways to fly him. I shall call the more popular way “the lazy way” which involves casting chill while in spectral.

For “the lazy way” you would tune for hp.

Flying the dragon as a traditional hunter (higher skill but better potential) you would tune for cumulative attack damage with freeze being used more to stop damage and less to kill towers. (Which can be in the form of more ammo)

Since you can drain the entire ammo bar, you can think of your burstable damage as being modified attack * ammo, while this isn’t exactly true, it’s at least close enough to get a meaningful comparison. (Technically you will in most cases have regen’d at Least 1 more ammo before ammo is empty)

Then we have spells that either increase regen or consume ammo or both to factor in. For example spectral increases regen of ammo but it’s unclear to me if having more ammo increases the rate of regen or if it’s unchanged. Whereas ronin or noctua exchange ammo for healing and definitely appear to heal more if you have more ammo.

And of corse when extending beyond bustability the damage formula changes. But in the case of pathox you would ideally be able to go into spectral to recover ammo, and extend your bustability

Generally speaking damage wise (grossly approximated since each shot also has modifiers and number of shots can vary) you have 100% for each shot and would need to increase by greater than 9% to get the same damage 11 shots would have gotten you (base + max research)

Which means a mythic ammo rune would in almost all cases give you more damage potential with +200% (2 ammo) than an 8% damage rune, but a legendary +100% (1 ammo) could be a wash with a 5% damage rune depending on how you are geared.

At lest this is how I’ve been looking at it. Seems to work out for me.

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I’ve got Swann on Pathox and prefer the additional ammo. Most times against defenders CC wont beat hammer spam so spam tapping is needed. Kazane will be going on Ronin for me

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