Short update for everyone: We deployed a change today that removed the troop requirement for SIeger debuff to work. A sieger with 1 troop, 2 troops or 100k troops will debuff equally well.
Just to be clear: You have reverted it back to 1 troop from 20k?
There was a good reason to increase it from 1 troop, but 20k was equally stupid. I’m surprised we haven’t gone for a value in between.
Who asked for this? So basically send lots of troops in on destroyers and send a bunch of 1-100 troop siegers too to debuff at no loss of troops and just keep respawning them
woot! time to bring 1 troop siegers that no one will bother wiping, to debuff a castle.
To expand on flumpie’s comment; the reason to have it increased from 1 was they debuff all those 1033 dp trapper but also at a risk for the seiger’s troops… Now, just throw a 1 troop seiger and get that done… seriously?
Ok, maybe allow an S2 trapper to trap for more than 30 sec or so with 5k troops.
PG seems to be making huge, sweeping changes with little consideration to the ramifications.
Should be able to trap for an hour with 1 troop
Both data and advisory from players tell us that Siegers are the most underutilized primarch, partly because of the risk involved in using them. We decide to improve their utility by removing this restriction.
I use a max sieger all the time as do many others
High risk high reward
The 1 troop business doesn’t make sense
There’s this saying - the more you disagree with people the nicer you should talk… so PG
Thank you for the reply, please consider this:
For balancing the debuff ability that they have, there Should be a risk using siegers as they weaken ALL the other prims through the debuff.
The risk came from the low dp, meaning more troop loss. But the high ap of sieger also meant they can lose less troops in a hit. Like Wizzy said; high risk high reward. It’s a game of balance. But what this change will most likely do is have people use siegers with 1 troop in large attacks for the debuff. Is that how an entire class should be used?
That also can limit trapper and taunter training via counter snipes on siegers when attackers just put 1 troop for the desired debuff.
If you wanted to increase their utility by decreasing the troop loss risk (which imho is unnecessary) then lower the required troop number for the debuff to 10-15k please. 1 is honestly the other end of an extreme.
After mid May is possibly a little late for an April’s fool prank.
Greetings, Tactical Degradation Lords.
I do hear your fears of droves of 1 troop siegers roaming the land and debuffing every castle. You may be about to post what you consider a very moderate analysis saying, “I know the story of ANOTHER man who debuffed something. His name was Stalin, and he debuffed DEMOCRACY.”
Be not afraid! There is no need to theorycraft the effects. For several years prior to December 2019, the mechanics were as they are now, and somehow, 1 troop siegers failed to become the dominant metagame. Bear in mind that a large portion of this period predated S2 prims, so the fort bonus was even more significant than it is now. Strangely enough, fearsome sieger swarms failed to materialize and cause every castle in the game to crumble to dust.
Why? Well, among other things, the defender can hit and quit easily on a 1 troop prim. The countering player loses 8 troops. It takes about 10 seconds. It takes the attacker longer than that to move onto his castle. It’s not a great idea.
“Okay, but what about the terrifying 500 troop siegers?” No one did that either. Why? Well, I wasn’t running high end raids at the time, but here’s my speculation:
All things being equal, the defender in this game has a massive advantage that grows over the duration of an attack. They have better ability to reinforce. They have support that is generally more willing to show up. They have the fort bonus. They have the ability to use defensive prims without losing them. The one thing that the attacker generally has is the ability to choose the terms under which the battle starts, which means they will have a readiness advantage over the defender. Blowing this advantage–the time before the defender is mobilized–to shuffle in prims that you can’t attack with, is wasting precious seconds.
In the current game, with lag, it’s not precious seconds. It’s precious minutes. Because if your master plan to debuff the fort is to move in 16 maxed siegers with 500 troops, then move in your main body (in whatever order), here is what will actually happen:
a) your give the order for your siegers to go
b) 14 of your 16 siegers go, 2 of them got bored while you were wrangling 16 mobile gamers and started doing something else while they were waiting around. That’s ok! you can work with 14! 14 siegers go!
c) if you aren’t unusually disciplined: 10 primarchs of the rest of your invasion force also goes, because they saw lines and got excited!
d) 10 of your siegers are still confusedly sitting around, because in step b, only 4 of them actually went. The other 10 had lag.
e) Time passes.
f) 5 more of your siegers make it through lag and move in.
g) More time passes.
h) 3 more of your siegers move in.
i) More time passes.
j) 1 of your siegers moves in! Ok! This is it! Wait, where’s the last sieger?
k) You receive a mail from your last sieger. It says, “I have died of old age.”
l) This is highly unforrtunate, but you have a battle to lead! You order the rest of your primarchs in to attack this fully debuffed fort.
m) Somehow, the enemy has managed to block guards in the 26 minutes since you started your attack. How did they know to do this? Do you have a LEAK?!
n) All your troops die horribly.
“Ok,” you say, "I get your point. But what about the BALANCE? "
I’m glad you mentioned balance! Risk-reward! That sounds like a good thing to consider, let’s look at the numbers.
So, here’s the risk-reward proposition for using a sieger versus an equal strength trapper:
- You move your sieger onto the castle.
- You hope you don’t get enfeebled. If you do, you die at a 10:1 ratio.
- You select the prim you want to attack. You may not be able to do this directly, if there are a lot of prims on the castle; you might have to open the menu.
- You then select the dragon you want to attack with.
- You hope you didn’t get trapped while you were doing this, otherwise you will probably be countered and die at a 10:1 ratio.
- You start your attack.
- You get somewhere between 0 and 3 defenders.
- If you get under 50%: you die at a 10:1 ratio.
- If you are unable to complete the opponent’s base to 100% before someone five flames you: you die at a 10:1 ratio.
- If you are able to complete the opponent’s base to 100% before someone five flames you, but not before they get to 70% and quit, you die at more like a 5:1 ratio. IMPROVEMENT.
- If you get 3 defenders on a maxed base, fly both perfectly and lightning fast, pull off a beautiful run, and manage to 5-flame before anyone counters you:
a) you are up against the fort debuff, call this 180.
b) so your base ratio is 912*2/1093, 1.66
c) but invariably the defender has many more troops than you, so you suffer the maximal large army modifer on top of that: you get only 85% of that number.
d) so you get a stunning 1.4:1, in your favor.
That’s what you get for perfect performance. Assuming the other things didn’t happen.
If you think defense in this game is too hard and attack is too rewarding, I would venture you are not attacking very many decent teams.
The debuff you are all so concerned about is 1.3% the defensive power of a maxed trapper, on a maxed fort.
The whole analysis is pretty much spot on, but these little details make them a joy to read too.
There is not a single persons posts I will ever enjoy more than yours Tinsir. What a lovely analysis.
This is beautiful
There is a new strategy from the defensive side that I’ve been facing more lately when I snipe( not raid), the trap/taunt and move out of the castle.
You see a nice taunter. But you can’t krelos it. You move in to attack. A level 500 is waiting for you with seiger.
He kreloses you before and quits at 70 percent.
You see a nice taunter, which you can hit with krelos, you go for him… You get trapped.
I enter the battle screen of attacking the trapper.
As soon as I finished selecting a dragon
" Defending primarch is no longer on your castle "
The trapper moved off.
I attack taunter again.
’ You are trapped ’ by another trapper.
You attack the trapper…
The " Defending primarch is no longer in your castle " This guy moved off too.
By all this time, you are already dead 5-7 times by the level 500 krelosing you.
Unless I’m persistent to evade the trapper trap ability cooldown. I’m feked.
But then there is enfeeble for them to again finish first, if I was a bigger level.
And I already have lost 15k troops at this point, 3-4k at a time trying to kill their 10k on taunter.
The same thing with a taunter.
You want to hit a nice juicy prim, no taunter on castle, you checked it thorough, You attack him. Out of nowhere, " You are taunted, hit the taunter " Message pops up. Great a taunter moved in.
Cool, you attack the taunter.
" Defending prim no longer at the castle “.
He moved off the taunter.
I Attack the juicy prim again. Because I can’t find the taunter in the menu anymore.
" You are taunted” Again shows up. The taunter moved back in.
Come out of attack screen to attack the taunter again… You are greeted with…
" Attacking primarch is no longer at the castle "
" Your primarch has been freed"
" You gained 10 glory and lost 4000 troops".
These well timed movements. Damn.
At first, I used to think I’m just damn unlucky to catch these big kreloses all the time.
But then bots came . Holy damn. Those 500 seigers are now always there waiting for you.
I can only gain offensive glory if I’m in a raid with my teams bigger taunters saving my ass and the defenses on them.
Am I still just very unlucky all the time when I snipe or does this new strategy feel like an exploit, I don’t know at this point.
are you telling me that the players that bounced between 2 NML nodes and onto one of my castles and launched attack within less than 2 seconds are cheating?