Something to consider with suggestions


#1

I know many people want to improve wars, which I understand and agree with at the foundational level. I think when solutions are proposed (for anything) it needs to be more than a bandaid fix for just one part. Each issue in the game has one or more core differences, and unless those are addressed, changing things will almost always just make situations worse.

I will not pretend to have all the answers, by any means. One of my greatest issues with myself is that it is far easier to be critical than helpful, as I think is the case with many people. However, to the topic at hand.

We need to fine the core issues behind the boredom/annoyance that is war before we can fix the mechanics of wars. I think, in this situation, we must ask ourselves a series of questions long before we can look for the answers. The questions that come to my mind regarding improving wars are:

  • Why don’t people war in what are very clearly meant to be the most competitive leagues?
  • Why are most wars between competitive teams end with 250, therefore using the tie breaker system?
  • Why can one person determine the outcomes in lower leagues?

These are starting questions. I ask, as the OP that this thread purely be focused on questions and the possible answers to questions. This is NOT meant to be a suggestion thread, so get those off topic suggestions the duck out of here. I want questions, simple answers, or follow up questions.




Updates based on thread:


Q: Why don’t people war in what are very clearly meant to be the most competitive leagues?

  • Wars do not provide enough reward for the amount of effort required. - Liz & Lee
  • Basically it falls back to the fact that the league structure proposal you came up with was never fully implemented. The rewards that would have to be paid out at D1 to make it appealing enough for teams to really fight to be in that league is a lot more than PG seems willing to give away. - LIz
  • Why try pushing for D1 where PVP events are a HELL of a lot harder when the team rewards you can get are barely better than D2? It makes more sense to say in D2 where the team as a whole can have an easier time getting their personal points in the event, especially since there isn’t a ton more prizes to make up for the lower personal scores. Personal prizes have always been much better than anything you can earn as a team for the team’s placement in an event. - Liz
    • Basically saying that it actually makes more sense to NOT war and stay in lower leagues.
  • In order to win in a competitive league, the team often puts Atlas raids on hold, keeps runs to a minimum, and has as many people as possible watching for banners the whole time. - Lee

Q: Why are most wars between competitive teams end with 250, therefore using the tie breaker system?

  • Full attendance (250 flames if all bases are killable) is becoming the norm - Morreion
    • Q: Why is 250 flames becoming a norm?
    • Q: Should 250 flames be the norm?
  • Lesser league’s wars don’t often see a 250/250 war and thus don’t need a tie breaker simply more flames. Hence why one none active player makes all the difference. Not everyone has time or has other irl priorities to get one for 5mins and do a “neccessary” war when it’s only a game. - D3athlyDescent
    • Q: Do you feel that wars are therefore more balanced at lower leagues rather than the competitive leagues?
    • Q: If players do not see the value in 5 minutes to log in and do war, how might others feel at the long hours spent staring at the screen, waiting for people to attack.

Q: Why don’t people enjoy wars?

  • I dislike wars because of the time commitment they require. It’s just not a fun way to spend my evening, and I still play the game for the fun of it, not the prestige of being in a higher league. - DRintheSky

Q: Why can one person determine the outcomes in lower leagues?

  • No matter how badly built and badly defended the base of the 400+ is, it will be impossible for the other team to 5-flame a base with a load of maxed towers (barring some Hau magic).
  • No matter how poorly the 400+ flies, a one-button warrior several tiers up will still cut through all the lower level team bases, so no skill is needed in the 400.
  • It makes the level, skill, and base quality of the other 49 team members completely irrelevant.
    In other words, the only thing the 400+ team needs is attendance, and some resistance to boredom of the 400+. (Morreion)
  • Roster makes more of a difference than skill or activity (Bratman)
    • Q: Why are these players in lower leagues or rather, why is there such an imbalance of rosters?
    • Q: Should rosters like this be able to solely determine wars?

#2

As a player in one of the more competitive leagues in the game (D2) I feel that the answer to this question is currently that wars do not provide enough reward for the amount of effort required.

Depending on when you war you might end up in D1 where you get slaughtered and kicked down to a Sapphire 1 league (or maybe even lower depending on how bad your luck is).

The payout of egg tokens and points is not enough to justify the long hours spent staring at your device screen, waiting for the other team to decide to attack you. Lots of time and consumable RSS are spent each war to protect the strongest bases.

I do not know how to fix this portion of the problem and I honestly don’t see PG handing out RSS like candy to make wars at the highest level of the game something that is sought out.


#3

Higher leagues take greater amount of commitment and seriousness then lower leagues. Lesser league’s wars don’t often see a 250/250 war and thus don’t need a tie breaker simply more flames. Hence why one none active player makes all the difference. Not everyone has time or has other irl priorities to get one for 5mins and do a “neccessary” war when it’s only a game.


#4

I have follow up questions:

Is it that wars do not provide enough in regards to rewards, or the result of said wars (league change, rank change) provide more downsides than upsides?

Is the result of wars something that just influences further wars/rank?

Diamond 1 is the most competitive and most prestigious league in the game. Why wouldn’t teams want to go here?

You mention long hours spent staring at a screen. Do you feel there could be any rewards to make this a fun activity?



Do you feel that wars are therefore more balanced at lower leagues rather than the competitive leagues?

As a follow up question to this, if you feel that many players will not see the value in 5 minutes to log in an do war, how do you feel others might see:

that happens at the competitive end?





Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation with such good posts.


#5

I have no real constructive suggestions to offer, but I will agree that, for me at least, the rewards of a war are not worth the effort. I dislike wars because of the time commitment they require. It’s just not a fun way to spend my evening, and I still play the game for the fun of it, not the prestige of being in a higher league.


#6

I’m playing in P1, where this is definitely something that happens to us. I believe the reasons it can happen here are:

  • Full attendence (250 flames if all bases are killable) is becoming the norm
  • In most teams in the league all players are at least one or two tiers removed from end game

This means if one team has a lvl 400+ base with endgame tier dragons, and the other does not, only one team can possibly win. The reasons I feel this is a problem are:

  • No matter how badly built and badly defended the base of the 400+ is, it will be impossible for the other team to 5-flame a base with a load of maxed towers (barring some Hau magic).
  • No matter how poorly the 400+ flies, a one-button warrior several tiers up will still cut through all the lower level team bases, so no skill is needed in the 400.
  • It makes the level, skill, and base quality of the other 49 team members completely irrelevant.

In other words, the only thing the 400+ team needs is attendance, and some resistance to boredom of the 400+.


#7

Basically it falls back to the fact that the league structure proposal you came up with was never fully implemented. The rewards that would have to be paid out at D1 to make it appealing enough for teams to really fight to be in that league is a lot more than PG seems willing to give away.

Edit: why try pushing for D1 where PVP events are a HELL of a lot harder when the team rewards you can get are barely better than D2? It makes more sense to say in D2 where the team as a whole can have an easier time getting their personal points in the event, especially since there isn’t a ton more prizes to make up for the lower personal scores. Personal prizes have always been much better than anything you can earn as a team for the team’s placement in an event.


#8

The only real “reward” of winning a war is a paltry sum of egg tokens that could easily have been gained with 1 or 2 egg missions, instead of a 24 hour ordeal.

In order to win in a competitive league, the team often puts Atlas raids on hold, keeps runs to a minimum, and has as many people as possible watching for banners the whole time.

The only real reason to war at all is to move up in rank to a higher league. But go to high, and you’ll get slapped down by multiple stronger teams. Wars are NOT fun, losing multiple wars is even less fun.


#9

I have not had a lot of experience in the higher leagues but I can speak about my experience in P4. Some weeks we had wars almost everyday, other weeks we did not have a single war. I declared most of our wars, and I based my decisions off of a few different factors but it really only came down to player level. If my team had a 350 and a 336 and the other team did not have people anywhere close, we’d declare against them. As long as our team showed up we would win solely because we had 1-2 people who’s bases couldn’t be beaten. May sound like a cheap move but when you are dealing with teams who have players with 6-7 alts on the same team, you do what you can to win.
Also we declared to move up in league only to draw in potential recruits. The benefits of moving up in league are laughable and it was unrealistic of us to expect to make it high enough for the rewards to actually matter. The amount of effort and resources put into wars far outweigh the benefits and staring at a screen for hours on end waiting for banners to drop is incredibly boring and time consuming. Even if you do happen to move up, you get slaughtered by teams who have much higher levels than you and your team gets discouraged. Your team may decide to stay in a lower league because they can get better personal prizes. As Liz mentioned above, personal prizes are better than team prizes anyway, so why worsen your teams chance at seasonal progression? All of the prizes people shoot for are in the season lines because they offer the best prizes no matter the league. A lvl 230 in P4 can earn the same pvp score and get the exact same prizes as a lvl 230 in D2 with wayyyy less effort. So why move up? Some may like the challenge, but others…or most people would rather take the easy prizes.


#10

So if I may ask a follow up question: do you feel the only purpose of war is to move up to a higher league?

If so, do you feel the only reason to move up to a higher league is prestige?



This makes perfect sense to me. If I may: Do you feel wars are an enjoyable part of the game, in either situation?

Why do you feel a 400+ would play in lower leagues?




I agree.

So I feel this very accurately answers:




So the rewards do not offset the time input. Agree.

Not only are the rewards not worth it, but it actually puts some other, often more enjoyable, activities on hold. Less of a reason to war yet.

So to add on top, it is a morale killer to actually win and move up leagues.




So won wars were based on roster, not on skill or activity.

For sure.

Thank you all so much for contributing. I think these factors are very important to keep in mind before anyone tries to “fix” wars. I especially love hearing from a non-Diamond/Sapphire perspective.


#11

Once upon a time, most teams had at least some inclination of trying to move their way up through the ranks towards Diamond. Winning wars was the only way to improve your rank. Defensive flames didn’t matter. You could pick a war with any team in the league, and as long as you had the same number of players (or more) it would come down to whether or not you could find a way to beat all of their bases with 1 dragon + 1 backer. The war would either end as a victory, giving you a huge boost in rank, or as a tie, giving you a smaller boost in rank. Times were good.

Now, I think very few teams have any delusions about making ti to Sapphire or Diamond any time soon. Therefore, the entire motivation behind wars becomes a little messy. Active teams have to declare fewer wars, or even actively throw wars, in order to avoid moving too far up in rank. Everyone is aware that it can take months, if not years, for a team to grow strong enough to take on upper leagues…and thus…we have stagnation.

So, how do we fix wars? Are the mechanics of wars broken? Or, is there simply no motivation to fight wars? For example, when my team was in Gold we did 2 (sometimes 3) wars a day, 5 days a week. Now, in Platinum, we do 1, maybe 2, wars PER WEEK! The rest of our time is spent on Atlas and Events. War simply isn’t as important as it once was.


#12

Obviously not so much when there is zero chance because of a very high level player backing everything.

But most of the other times I do enjoy the wars, there’s a big amount of cooperation and activity surrounding them. I do find the most fun ones are the ones that don’t end in 250 on either side. We won a war recently 241 to 240. We were lucky two of them didn’t show up, but all the effort put into two-flaming the 400+ and four-flaming the other high level with clever mixes of Noc, Hau and Sylphen really made if feel like a hard-won victory.

If every war was between teams with similar level bases, I think I would enjoy all of them a lot.

I don’t think I can really answer that, as I’m not a telepath :grin:

If I have to speculate, I suppose there can be many different reasons. Just hanging with old friends, a break from the more intense higher leagues, or a desire to be the most important person in a team. I think only the last of those would be motivated to carry a whole team by backing everything.


#13

I think this is more of a reply to @TheRedDelilah but there are a LOT of 350+ players floating around the lower leagues. Some of them are just high level spenders that haven’t been with the game that long, and like feeling like Gods among ants. I’m sure that others, as M said, are just bored of higher league play.


#14

To sum it up, wars are outdated, just like many things in this game.


#15

Most of the players in higher leagues have a stronger sense of commitment to be competitive because they’ve either invested more time, money or both to get to where they are (level or league). When someone has put in a lot into something, they tend to care more about the overall outcome and not just a single aspect (e.g. it’s hard to be active in Atlas and not be active in war or vice versa).

Most war hits are also done in waves and the normal reasons why some teams cannot hit 250 :fire: is because some members either aren’t on during wave timings and eventually forget they have yet to do their hit or they never logged on for the entire war duration. With a team full of committed players, the chances of someone “forgetting” or not logging on for a full 24 hours are very slim.

A cost-benefit analysis will probably yield results of extremely high costs for little and maybe negligible benefits (meager amount of tokens that aren’t 1 fragment of a Lineage dragon).


#16

This is entirely due to game balance IMO. At the moment, dragons rule - even at end game. Right dragons, and in general, you will get 5 flames regardless of defence. Exceptions are maybe the absolute top top of end game bases where multiple dragons may be needed or waves to isolate defence and therefore get an easier run.

Full attendance should be expected at the most competitive teams. That’s why they’re competitive lol


#17

:scream: Probably it’s the reason some players overestimating bases and trying much higher leveled base with lower (lineage?) dragons

-edit-
While full attendance is a must, 250 flames being the norm is most likely due to maximum potential score for wars.
i.e. People just don’t want to lose…


#18

And therein lies the conundrum facing us.

Take my answer above re game balance where dragons rule currently. Then let’s say we swing the pendulum all the way to the other side and bases rule. This will exacerbate the issue at lower leagues where one big player can carry the entire team, because now not only are their dragons able to solo the other team, their base becomes even more unbeatable.


#19

Not quite. Below end game, dragons rule because there’s always a bigger dragon out there that can solo your base.

At end game, dragons still rule because of current scaling.


#20

There are multiple reasons for this, some of which include playing with friends, want to be more casual, personal points easier to get in lower leagues etc.

The imbalance happens due to there being no restriction whatsoever of a player being in any league other than to have a team accept you as member. I won’t suggest a solution but I would say we can look to professional sports for inspiration on how we might solve this.