Spell Scaling Feedback Thread


#262

If anything it should be effecting those players more. At least end game dragons/spells (the new ones anyways) were made to allow for gear in some way. Its older spells that need to be addressed since they were never designed to allow for a dragon to have boosts greater than 120%. Go and Havok, are good examples of this, spells which under-perform. 250+ may be noticing the issues first but thats mainly because on average they have better gear than the lower levels. But given time it will become evident to everyone if spell scaling isn’t implemented.


#263

good examples: look at your consumables - 95% of all spells are usless. Stoneskin, Explosive Shield, Cure Poison, Evasion…

So what?

Same happend to Towers (Ballista, Treb) and same happend to “old dragons”.
Why try to use a lot of ressources for fixing something which is obsolete?


#264

True, but those spells are not used on modern dragons (possible exception is explosive shield since we see it white from time to time). In fact most of them havn’t been on a dragon since plat tier was highest. Go and havok variants are still common spells.

Thing is gear boost HP and Attack only. So take a base and a dragon and give them both 100% gear, the end result is a 50% nerf to spell damage/healing boost. How can any dragon be properly balanced if the way it performs is drastically different depending on its gear? If spell scaling is done (properly) a dragon will always be balanced, regardless of gear. Only time gear will matter is if there is a significant difference between what is on the base vs what is on the dragon; but i think thats fine.

A max base being attacked by a max dragon without gear (both) should be roughly the same difficulty as when it is attacked with gear (both). That is balance IMO.


#265

It was stated earlier (by a member of the GPF) that this would not make hunters more powerful.

And the messaging for has been poor, yet again, so there is nothing here that refutes this either.


#266

Literally no one said it wouldn’t make hunters more powerful, and no one said you would need max gear to make the spells feel as they did pre patch. Hold your horses please


#267

Are the standard used max research and 30% consumables?


#268

This may have been asked before, but how does Prospero’s 250% buff work with the planned updates?


#269

Will this affect Sacrifice and GO’s damage?


#270

People actually use Sacrifice? :eyes:


#271

Spindra users used it a lot I think. Also sometimes I do, with Sekhem.


#272

This should have been done ages ago. I can’t think of any game I played where if you boosted the players stats, the spells don’t increase accordingly. It made no sense that a dragon with a 0% boost and the exact same dragon with an 80% boost did identical spell damage.

Sadly when this rolls out, dragons will be less relevant than gear. It will be “War Gear.” A fully boosted up Harbinger dragon will be much more effective than a marginally equipped Vanguard. But perhaps a drastic change is needed to show how ridiculous the thought is that putting gear on a dinky rider somehow more than doubles a dragons power. The OP gear was clearly a money-grab that will end up backfiring balance as soon as these changes happen. The variability in attacks will be drastic. You can test a 0% dragon against a 0% base as well as a 100% boosted dragon against a 100% boosted base and find s nice balance. But when in this game is it an even match? You will have 100% boosted dragons going against 40% boosted bases and blowing them up like they aren’t even there.

And forget about non-atlas players/teams having a chance to do anything against an atlas player/team with decent gear. Even Plat teams with little land will lag severely behind due to the amount of time everyone else has had to collect shards to level gear. For example, I have 2 full sets up legendary or higher defense gear, and all of my offensive gear is legendary or higher for every element. My weakest element gear with a rider provides a +70%/+65% boost.

This should have been done a while ago so they could have seen what a damn mistake the OP gear was and fixed it when it came out. You have the exact same dragon that can go anywhere from 1 billion power up to 7 billion based on gear, riders, and boosts. It would make sense conceptually if it was dragon gear providing the stats, but a dragon rider’s helmet? Meh.


#273

Agreed! gear was the worst thing (for the players) PG has ever done! best thing for them though. Yay i can breed the most powerful dragon in the game! oh wait, i dont have that type of gear… so its… junk. Serious error IMO. Originally gear was only +20% when maxed. that was much more appropriate. Now if you dont have very good gear you can’t compete. Even if you have mythic vanguards!

PG: here is this new thing called gear!
Players: Oh gear sounds good! what does it do?
PG: it can double the strength of your base and dragons!
Players: Double!?!? Thats awsome!
a more critical player in the back row speaks up: Wait, so if we get all max gear, and our enemies get all max gear, we are no better off then we are right now? Isn’t that like nerfing us all by 50% until we pay for this gear you want us all to get? Isn’t this just a money grab that will benefit the whales the most?
PG: GEAR!
Players: YAY GEAR!
the critical player: :man_facepalming:


#274

This. Exactly this


#275

I start understanding the problem more now.

What I didn´t understand is the way of the solution:
If dragons with gear are overpowered already, how exactly would help “scaling spells” to fix that?

The reason why I am so sceptical towards this whole topic is: the race between NEW DRAGON TIER and then followed by NEW TOWER TIERS is out of balance already. Tokens are easier to gather then timers - thus: it´s easier to grow dragons then base. Now spell scaling makes dragons even more powerful? I don´t understand the logic in that.

I´d rather say fix tower scaling first! Juggling with spell powers of different Dragons simply seems to be like opening Pandoras Box!


#276

It will make a dragon more uniform. So if Player A attacks player B, both with no gear, it will be the same difficulty as if they both had max gear. As of right now it would be harder for the attacker when both have max gear because its spells are based on unboosted stats.

Benefit #1 is they can build/design balanced dragons that will remain balanced regardless of gear.

Benefit #2 It will also make spell descriptions accurate again. So if a spell says it will heal for 20% it will actually heal for 20% (whereas right now 20% of base HP is closer to 6% due to all the boosts it doesn’t allow for).


#277

It will make some more powerful. But like Mike said, it will make them more uniform and some dragons actually usable.

Some spells being tailored towards base HP make the dragon look strong in testing, but when it is geared up against a similarly geared up base, it gets exponentially worse and essentially renders the dragon unusable. In other scenarios, it makes the dragon even better.

Sorcerers have essentially been nerfed because of this. Look at a spell like seeker shots. It does 13% base HP damage. Rajin has around 47 million base HP at expert. So he will do around 6.1 million per seeker shot. Now let’s say he’s attacking a level 65 Dark Flak. If he was balanced at base stats against base stat DF, that tower has around 14.5 million HP. So one seeker shot would kill roughly 42% in one hit. Not bad considering that spell shoots 10 shots at the island. But now let’s say we have a 100% boosted Rajin with 100% boosted DF. Rajin still deals 6.1 million with 1 seeker, but the DF now has 29 million HP. So he now kills 21% of that tower. Since most sorcerers use base HP spells, they’ve essentially been nerfed and nobody uses them due to this massive loss of attack. Healing mark is supposed to heal 20%, but does more like 10% unless you rune the hell out of it.

Also, some dragons benefit from this. Sacrifice with Jotun and Corth significantly benefit. Instead of 10% total HP gone, they only lose 10% base hp. So with good runes, research, gear, etc., that 10% hp loss turns more into 4%. So sacrifice essentially has turned into a free “get rage” spell.

So some dragons got nerfed and became unusable when they probably looked great when testing at base levels. Some became vastly overpowered due to essentially the negative aspect of a spell being reduced by the same proportion as the positive aspect of a different dragon’s.

I think the purpose of this fix was to get away from the fact that half the dragons released are completely useless because their spells seemingly get worse as you make your dragon better.

Tower scaling does need to be fixed, but that’s a separate issue. And it should be fixed retroactive to make them better. Not just chuck out 5 more tower levels because that won’t fix the issue because most people won’t be able to afford the fix.


#278

Preach.


#279

@MikeH8sDisGame and @BAshtonXxX thanks again for taking time to explain.

My point is: from a logical point of view I completly agree with you. Algorithms should be right, game mechanics should be corrected and therefore from a mathematical point of you nothing speaks against spell scalling - heck it is something that is actually overdue!

But my position is not a mathematical one, it is one playing this game EVERY SINGLE DAY and facing reality: reality is that now even if some dragons are useless and some spells don´t have the effect I´d hope for there are ALWAYS some dragons being able to take down bases much higher.

Since a long time my dragons are usually capable to hit bases 50-100 levels above my own.
And GOD I hate it if a player 100 levels lower then me plows through my base.

So the overall outcome of this is:
IN BEST CASE: every player will have many more much stronger dragons and thus makes base building and defending obsolete. Or if I try in other words: if the intention of spell scaling is a better balance of the game I totally SUPPORT the idea of bringing better balance to the game I simply don´t believe that this is the right way.

IN REAL CASE: this whole process will mess up spells so bad that it will take months until the game works normal again.

You guys really want that?


#280

Why? Are you holding rss and they stoling them?
Why do you care who killed your base?
I believe,if Base designed nice,this ain’t happening very often.
And if it happens,then Flyer is great
There is some really hight bases without gear,which I can easily take down
But I’m seeing them very rare
I’m usually checking report when it’s solo and near my own lvl and below,to see how they used dragon and fix layout mistakes if possible.

There is some base which must be down by geared dragon
For example,if I have 2,5b dragon and I’m hitting naked bad builder base 100 lvl above my lvl,it’s actually a fair deal,since my Stats twice higher,then theirs and I worked super hard to get and max my dragon gear.
But such bad bases happens not often
I love that they made this change,because now it’s a fair game and ppl with maxed gear would be rewarded fairly

What makes me upset is that even if Arelyna said,that this update won’t nerf hunters it’s not quite true
Most of spells on my hunters are based on HP
And Hunter naturally has lower HP,then any other class
So,compared to warriors and Sorcerers,they will increase way less power,which is sad


#281

I get that you think that tower balance is more important. But you can’t balance towers until you balance dragon spells.

If they balanced towers for the current meta, then fixed the spells, they would have to re-balance towers for the newly fixed spells. By fixing the spells first, it will secure the foundation to balance the towers going forward.

I don’t think this will have much, if any, impact on the current best dragons. It will simply make the other dragons not complete dog shit. Instead of “man this dragon sucks, let’s get it breedable and chunk it in the dungeon,” it may be “well, this dragon isn’t that good, but usable. Might as well keep him until I get one of the better dragons.”