The Future of Endgame/non-Endgame balance

[xNivMizzet]

Recently, there have been more and more dragons that work great for endgame players but have severely limited use for lower level players.

I do have some strong suspicions with this season’s dragons but they’re still new so I’ll leave them out of this post.

But like looking at last season: Sepulla was, even after the buff, unfortunately bad. Which is a shame because it was a unique sorcerer spellkit that even if I was never going to get, looked interesting. I saw some players at Endgame who apparently find it to be useful, but at lower tiers it is 100% bad and doesn’t win very many battles. Now personally, I don’t ever really go for sorcerers or warriors they’re usually just not my type, but they are both classes in WD, and like last season for example the alternative was Calavore who is difficult to fly and which some people can’t or don’t want to put in that much time and energy to get the flight sequences down for. So that leaves the only mythic option to be Sepulla who I still have yet to see clear a defended base at sub-endgame or lower.

Next, Calavore. I absolutely adore Calavore. It is an insanely fun to fly dragon and made me remember why I love war dragons.
One problem: it can’t hit up. At all. There are 100% going to be comments saying “dragons don’t need to be able to hit up” so I’ll address that right here: yes they do. They always have been able to, and for anyone who’s lower than the average for their league they need to be able to hit up in order to not just be dead weight on the team.
Calavore, when flown perfectly, is incredibly powerful when hitting on tier which makes it amazing at Endgame tier. For someone who’s ex: Empyrean tier and used to hitting lv 102-107 towers defended, its useless. It just cannot, no matter what, deal enough damage to kill the towers necessary to stay alive. Even dirge—a 7 second cool down targeted removal spell—consistently fails to kill those towers.
Calavore was designed to be a high-skill high-reward dragon but it doesn’t do that for a lot of players. It’s still a pretty dang good cleanup dragon, but you’d think that a perfect run against a base only a few times your attack power and a couple tiers above would yield a victory but nope.

So the point of this whole thing is just PG in the future please make dragons that work well for all players not just endgame players. Because of power scaling over time, lineage dragons are not useful to the majority of players. That leaves seasonal dragons as the majority of our arsenal. We need divine dragons that can hit up if we are to do anything useful for our teams or ourselves.

@PGrdm @PGLawson @PGGalileo please at least consider. I know endgame players are probably the majority of PG’s profit but that doesn’t mean lower-game content can’t be balanced.

P.S. this isn’t a post asking for changes to pre-existing dragons, this is just a call for future dragons to not fall into this pattern.

[ZeroDucksGvn]

@xNivMizzet

I saw some players at Endgame who apparently find it to be useful, but at lower tiers it is 100% bad and doesn’t win very many battles. Now personally, I don’t ever really go for sorcerers or warriors they’re usually just not my type, but they are both classes in WD, and like last season for example the alternative was Calavore who is difficult to fly and which some people can’t or don’t want to put in that much time and energy to get the flight sequences down for. So that leaves the only mythic option to be Sepulla who I still have yet to see clear a defended base at sub-endgame or lower.

Honestly I find this very hard to believe. Most dragons are much better at lower tiers than they are at end tier and Sepulla is definitely one of those dragons. At end tier it is only ok as she has difficulty dealing with long kill islands and extra islands. At lower tiers you dont have that, you have short kill islands which Sep LOVES. I smile every time I hit a target packing a short base with Sep, she rips through that 5 tower island and doesnt have to worry about back towers hitting her summon

Unless it is an issue with stat scaling, I’ve never really seen any evidence of any of this. In fact most evidence seems to support the exact opposite. That most dragons will work at lower tiers but it is end tier in which they can really struggle and your choices are more limited.

[BlazingRuin]

@xNivMizzet

but at lower tiers it is 100% bad and doesn’t win very many battles.

In honesty, you’re stating the opposite of what happens in War Dragons. At lower tiers, pretty much any and all dragons work decently well due to the absent of Mythic gear, exotic kill islands, and even howi. Also are you stating defended bases or undefended bases to justify that 100%? For even if undefended, I don’t see any dragon in history being 100% bad when hitting bases when it’s not fully evolved.

[RuRuRuntsfam]

*dragon is designed for level 90 towers (example)
dragon cannot hit 100s+ defended
surprised pickachu face

I might respond to more stuff here, or just mute the thread, who knows,

[oSKULLo1776o]

Let’s talk about the fact that lineage drags suck so bad that u have to get a mythic in the first place to be significant and then they give you garbage mythics. PG is greedy and that will soon come back and bite them.

[PirateFish]

@oSKULLo

Let’s talk about the fact that lineage drags suck so bad that u have to get a mythic in the first place to be significant and then they give you garbage mythics. PG is greedy and that will soon come back and bite them

At lower levels lineage dragons are actually pretty good. T17 lineage are actually pretty good even for end game. There are a couple exceptions, empyrean and garnet off the top of my head that sucked. But dragons like amarok, ember, kinarius, rizar and loads more are really good for their tiers.

Edit: as a side note I have an alt i dont play all that often. But every so often when I fancy a break from end game I play him again just to fly those low level lineage again. Bit of nostalgic fun.
And its another reason I love assault. As once I’ve done all the tiers using strong divines. Ill fly them all again using the much loved, but tiherwise forgotten lineage.

[oSKULLo1776o]

Amarok Rizar kinnaras yea they are ok but they don’t cost any tokens so let’s talk about spending 250-400k tokens on a drag and then parking it as soon as breedable. Stay with me here

[FieryxFury]

@FisheyEQ

empyrean

Lusian

[Dream]

At higher tier tower hp/ dragon attack is pretty unbalanced as the tower is more tanky than the dragon damage so we see so many dragon with huge damage buff or oneshot spell now
Also you expected empyrean to hit eldrich base defended easily?
If that the case then it will be pretty op for end game aswell unless it has some trade off like morak inabilities to heal, zen and noctarn slowness

[Taco]

@xNivMizzet

Recently, there have been more and more dragons that work great for endgame players but have severely limited use for lower level players.

90% of dragons work even better for low/mid tier than they do end tier. I’m not sure where that logic stems from.

@xNivMizzet

Sepulla was, even after the buff, unfortunately bad.

Sepulla wasn’t bad post buff, isn’t bad. It’s a sorcerer. Don’t expect it to upshot triple D bases 100%.

@xNivMizzet

Sepulla who I still have yet to see clear a defended base at sub-endgame or lower.

I’ve seen many, with many positive reviews on my channel from those who got her because I recommend her. I wouldn’t have begged support to give up my calavore in exchange for Sepulla if it wasn’t a viable dragon.

@xNivMizzet

Empyrean tier and used to hitting lv 102-107 towers defended, its useless.

You shouldn’t be hitting those towers. That’s eldritch level. The reason people are “used” to dragons hitting up are due to set up dragons and broken dragons like Gig and Naja.

@xNivMizzet

Even dirge—a 7 second cool down targeted removal spell—consistently fails to kill those towers.

If dirge isn’t one shotting a tower, you have horrible gear/runes/rider or you’re reaching too high

@xNivMizzet

Because of power scaling over time, lineage dragons are not useful to the majority of players.

Which is why they were discounted and continue to discount breedable tiers.
But dragons like Jormungandr, Lusian, Itzani, Mordred, Apophet, Hauheset, Noctua, Destar, Orthoptor, etc, were good linage dragons and still useful, WHEN FLOWN ON TIER.

I mained Kyrule when I was in emerald tier, but guess what I didn’t do? Try to reach 2 tiers up because it was unrealistic for that dragon, and for many.

Stop judging dragons and claiming they’re “bad or useless” because they can’t do something they weren’t designed to do. If they steamroll 3 tiers up for mid levels they aren’t balanced at all for the top, because they would do the same thing.

Not only are dragons more useful at low/mid tiers, you can use a larger variety because in all honesty a lot of the bases aren’t well set up, barely have gear/runes, and are generally easier to take down with average dragons. AND you get to use them longer. I miss the days when I got to use pathox for 3 seasons instead of the 2-3 months I’ve gotten with Hauhezen.

Dragons are balanced for all tiers, ON TIER.
You can’t expect everything to reach the heights that dragons like Gig, Zen and Naja did. They were the exceptions.

[PirateFish]

@oSKULLo

Amarok Rizar kinnaras yea they are ok but they don’t cost any tokens so let’s talk about spending 250-400k tokens on a drag and then parking it as soon as breedable. Stay with me here

Not sure why you are face palming and eye rolling.

@oSKULLo

Let’s talk about the fact that lineage drags suck so bad that u have to get a mythic in the first place to be significant and then they give you garbage mythics. PG is greedy and that will soon come back and bite them

No where in your comment did you mention certain tiers or the costs. Maybe check what youre writing before posting a blanket statement

@oSKULLo

let’s talk about spending 250-400k tokens on a drag and then parking it as soon as breedable. Stay with me here

If you like we can talk about 550k tokens dragons that are not benched when bred and are part of a staple roster. If you are able to stay with me here.

[xNivMizzet]

I’m looking at tier scaling.
For example: back when Naja came out there was a video of a 1.2b Naja undefended soloing I think it was JL. It was only possible bc the Naja was max tier. There isn’t a single obsidian Naja that’s 1.2b that can kill max towers, and there shouldn’t be. But that’s the issue that I’m saying needs a solution to a lesser degree.
Lower level bases are more compact, which is great for a lot of recent dragons, except that the towers are individually more powerful.

Looking at Calavore again, it does well against a base that has a lot of towers that it can kill relatively easily as opposed to a base that has just a few towers that it has to struggle through. At endgame, all the towers can be killed relatively easily but ex: empyrean Cal vs Abyssal base is significantly harder, in addition to the fact that when crossover expires or Wake gets used, the area damage might as well not exist bc it barely dents a tower.

[xNivMizzet]

Was talking abt 100% defended there

[xNivMizzet]

@BlazingRuin

At lower tiers, pretty much any and all dragons work decently well due to the absent of Mythic gear, exotic kill islands, and even howi.

There’s plenty of those in like mid 400 lvl.
And at lower levels no one has it, not the attacker or defender

[Dream]

then cosmetic number like attack power should be modified to represent more of the dragon?
Is that what it’s about then?
Edit a bit cause im dying from not sleeping for days

[ZeroDucksGvn]

@xNivMizzet

Lower level bases are more compact, which is great for a lot of recent dragons, except that the towers are individually more powerful.

How are they individually more powerful? Max level for tier x doesnt change. A 5 tower island of max Obsidian towers (those are what, 55s?) arent going to be stronger against Obsidian Sepulla than a 10 tower island of 112s is against a Verdant Sepulla. Not unless there is some weird DPS/HP scaling thing where level 50 Sep isnt designed to hit level 55s.

[xNivMizzet]

@RuRuRuntsfam

dragon is designed for level 90 towers (example)
dragon cannot hit 100s+ defended
surprised pickachu face

Hitting up has always been a thing. Always. It’s only recently that I’ve seen people acting like that’s ridiculous. If a dragons is high-skill than as flight perfection goes up so should it’s ability to take a base. With a low skill dragon, it’s going to hit a wall pretty soon. With a very high skill dragon, it shouldn’t be hitting a wall literally 10 tower levels above on-tier

@Taco

90% of dragons work even better for low/mid tier than they do end tier. I’m not sure where that logic stems from.

I have to disagree here. Flying endgame and flying low/mid are ofc very different. At endgame it’s less about overcoming an individual tower and more about managing rage and cool downs for the long haul. At low levels it’s about overcoming a select few towers. This lends more strategy to endgame flying than lower tier flying, which in turn makes succeeding at endgame a matter of understanding a dragon and at low tier a matter of not-hitting-a-massive-wall. Endgame flying is more “difficult” in the sense of the longer fight, lower tier flying is more “difficult” in the sense of everything needs to be perfect because a lot of the towers can one-shot you.

@Taco

You shouldn’t be hitting those towers. That’s eldritch level. The reason people are “used” to dragons hitting up are due to set up dragons and broken dragons like Gig and Naja.

I despise Gig with a passion. And would despise Naja also except it often gets knocked down by mages. I can’t think of a time in WD thinking all the way back to season 1 and 2 where hitting up has not been a legitimate part of the game. As more tiers are added to the game, the dynamics shift. For example: a Sapphire divine couldn’t solo an obsidian tier base back when obsidian was endgame. But now, with the right dragon that is entirely and realistically possible. “You shouldn’t be hitting that” is an argument that makes no sense. If there’s a high skill dragon why shouldn’t it be high reward like they’ve always been?

@Taco

you have horrible gear/runes/rider or you’re reaching too high

In this specific example it’s bc the runing for Cal ofc needs a lot of raaaaaage. More than ex: Narlyth who never had this problem bc it was ruined for more atk,

@Taco

were good linage dragons and still useful, WHEN FLOWN ON TIER.

Yes absolutely but exclusively on tier which is not what the meta makes necessary. Hitting up is necessary or about half the active population in WD becomes dead weight on their teams bc they can’t get any good points in pvp without OG Hau, can only hit a select few people in war, and have limited use in Atlas. That would effectively force leagues to be entirely divided by level so that everyone can live all nice and happy smacking around people their own size. Maybe not a bad idea, but it’s not the model currently in use except for a few dragons that don’t live up to the image of a high skill dragon.

Also, many lineage drags were better equipped to slug it out with longer bases as opposed to shorter higher level tower bases that are now what “on tier” would be for them.

@Taco

in all honesty a lot of the bases aren’t well set up, barely have gear/runes, and are generally easier to take down with average dragons

At very low levels, like sub-200, yes. Or in low leagues. But in upper Plat and Saph, 300’s and 400’s are usually at least decently well set up. Especially in Saph. There, dragons definitely have a longer lifespan of usability than at endgame, but not by a ton. Heck Noc stopped really being used much like 5 months ago.

[RuRuRuntsfam]

I’m curious, why do you think dragons should be able to hit bases that they weren’t designed for!

[OrcaFrost]

@xNivMizzet

There’s plenty of those in like mid 400 lvl.

Problem with 400s and 500s is, level is pretty compact.

Tower level

• 80 → 410
• 85 → 426 , max Emp
• 90 → 440
• 95 → 460, max Abyssal
• 100 → 475
• 105 → 490, max Eldritch
• 110 → 496

Therefore, for 400+, if the dragon perform well at end game, should be easier for non end game at appropriate level, assuming that our progress is optimal for our level.

[xNivMizzet]

Ok lemme ask this question:

If dragons are supposed hit on tier exclusively, what does that mean for balance between skill levels?

All recent divines should be able to hit undefended bases of their tier. That’s a given. Doesn’t always work that way example: Ozydias, but as a general rule that should be possible. More specifically, a recent mythic should always be able to hit on tier bases undefended, and if it legitimately can’t it definitely needs a buff.

So if a garnet tier warrior that takes no work to fly or to learn to fly can hit garnet tier bases, and a complex garnet hunter that takes the flier an extended period of time to nail the flying for is also hitting on tier and only on tier, what’s the point of getting the hunter? You achieve the same thing either way, one is just a lot harder to do right.

Does that mean that all dragons should be hard to fly? No, that wouldn’t be fair to people who don’t have the time or the the ability to fly those dragons: or simply don’t want to commit that much energy to one dragon. So should all dragons be easy to fly? No, difficult to fly dragons are what make this game fun for me and I know I’m not the only one who feels that way. But if there’s an easy to fly dragon and a hard to fly dragon and they can achieve the exact same thing…the overwhelmingly logical thing to do is get the easy to fly dragon.