The viability of classes and the speed incentive

As all players know, there are four classes in the game: warrior, sorcerer, hunter and invoker. Everyone also knows that each class has its strengths and weaknesses: Warriors are tanky but low breath damage, Sorcerers have powerful spells but low breath damage, Hunters have insane burst with low HP, invokers have the potential to do insane damage but are slow.

However, most players would agree that the hunter class is the best class of dragon. With is insane burst damage combating hammer spam, and with all of the best spells in the game open to its spell set: cloaks, dodges and tower disables, the spells usually counter the dragons squishiness by providing protection but also a safe place to use ammo from. Cloaks allow the dragon to negate all damage and supershots, allowing the dragon to reload ammo or shoot through the cloak if available. Dodges (i think) are the best spells in the game, allowing you everything cloaks do with the added benefit of dealing damage. Tower disables are also key to this game, stopping a tower from functioning, attacking, shielding or using supershots. Also, their burst damage allows them to be super fast for atlas.

There is a sheer drop in power between Hunters and the other classes, and i think that it is because PG has fully developed the hunter class: making spells that combat the hunters’ weaknesses, but the other classes need some work. So in this topic, i am going to list some ideas that will help the other classes be more viable in multiple aspects of the game.

Warrior:
These are meant to be your tanks, but i really don’t see them as tanks. All they do is eat up some damage, get canceled by ice flak ss, get pulled by orrery, and get one-shot by howitzers. To really lean in to the tank, i think that warriors should have a way of negating super shots, depending on the warrior and type of spell this may be fully negated or a percentage to negate a ss:

Thick Skin|Passive
Dragon has a 50% chance to completely negate the effect of every super shot that hits it.

Thick Skin|Active|White|1 Rage
Dragon negates all super shots for the duration. 4 second duration, 4 second cooldown.

These are two examples, i think that the passive form is better than the spell form, just because it seems more like a warrior that way, you don’t need a spell to be tanky as you already are. Obviously the passive could be built upon, maybe providing some healing every time a super shot hits you, or a shield. (I think a passive shield is a cool idea).

Sorcerers:
These dragons rely on spells for everything, as their basic attacks do nothing. I also think that buffing their damage, while practical, doesn’t say “sorcerer” to me. I think a better way to imprive sorcerers would be with passives like these:

Cold Grasp|Passive
Dragon’s breath attacks debuff towers. If the dragon uses its breath attacks on a debuffed tower it is frozen for 2 seconds. (Note that the debuff does nothing in this example, but could provide a damage debuff to the towers etc).

Regrowth|Passive
Every time the dragon damages a tower with its breath attack, it heals for 30% of the damage dealt. (Note that this spell heals 30% for one tower, in a normal swipe you will hit three towers meaning you heal for 30+30+30% of the damage dealt).

Spellcaster|Passive
Every time the dragon uses its swipe attack, the cooldown of the dragon’s spells are lowered by 0.5 seconds. (Note that when the spells go on cooldown again they will have their original cooldowns).

I think that more variety should be given to the sorcerers breath attacks, rather than giving it a damage boost it should provide some utility or healing that directly links to the sorcerers play style.

Invokers:
Their main weakness is that they are slow, their reload time is 4 seconds long and ammo reload spells on invokers are rare. This may be due to its multi-purpose, being a dodge as well. A simple solution may be to just remove the dodge from the spell:

Extra Rations|Active|White|1 Rage
Dragon reloads all invoker ammo on cast. 3 second cooldown.

Extra Rations|Active|White|0 Rage
Dragon sacrifices 5% of its modified HP and reloads all invoker ammo on cast. 3 second cooldown.

Empowered|Active|Blue|1 Rage
Dragon reloads its invoke shot on cast. 5 second cooldown. (Note that this spell does not reload the dragons 3 normal breath attacks).

I think that all invokers should have some way of quickening their reload time, wether a passive like Washi’s or a spell such as the ones above. I especially like the empowered spell, where the dragon reloads its invoke shot to quickly use 2 invokes in quick succession. Would this be OP, i don’t think so. The closest dragon to have something like this would be Steelwing, with a death gaze invoke and a death gaze spell. Is Steelwing OP? No, because it requires skill and exact timing and is slow.

How to make all dragon classes better?
Remove the speed incentive from the game. The real reason why the hunter class is the best is because it is (usually) the fastest. With speed being so linked with the game, farming for wood or food, grinding xp, or in atlas, Speed is at the heart. For example, with the current mythics, the debate between Nockmar and Steelwing is: who is faster? I personally don’t think that War dragons should be heading down this speedy path, and many dragons would become viable if only the speed intensive were removed.

But what do you think? Should the other classes be given buffs? Or should hunters be nerfed?

3 Likes

Warriors and sorcerers both certainly require a buff to their breath damage. We’ve seen time and time again that warrior must have a huge damage boost in order to even have a chance at dealing with defenders and at end tier that boost usually needs to be close to 400%. They also often get the breath speed as a buff later on which honestly doesnt actually do much and should just be built into the class in the first place. They use a beam style of breath which is different from the other 3 classes which use projectile style of attacks, the breath should be hitting immediately once you touch the screen

Warriors really dont serve as tanks anymore, that has been taken away from them. They no longer get resists which were designed to let them take more hits to offset their slower damage output. They now get small healing, if any at all and often are very rage intensive but get little to no rage regen meaning they often cant deal with defended long islands well or have no way of recovering from being rage drained and cant maintain their spells. This also makes for a very limited type of design where a warrior must have a dodge and/or a powerful aoe freeze, otherwise it has no way to dealing with common towers like Orrerys, ice flaks, long range towers and mages
As of late it seems like they are trying to make warriors that function more like hunters, focusing on their breath attacks rather than damage from spells. This is a big problem because fundamentally warriors can not function like hunters and lack the damage output the ability to damage multiple towers quickly.

I would like to see

  • A return of Elemental type resists
  • A return of healing and rage recovery such as bloodfury variants
  • A boost to the core base damage output and speed of their breath
  • Unique runes/glyphs with high rage and attack boosts. 4%-8% means nothing to a warrior that requires 400% or higher to have any hope of dealing with defenders.

Sorcerers are probably the most neglected class since we only see 1 mythic each year and you could count the number of good mythic sorcerers without running out of fingers on one hand.

One of the sorcerer’s biggest issues is that their breath damage is just worthless. The damage is far too low to ever have any hope of competing with defenders and the projectile is so slow. They had to create an automated attack feature just to make it do anything because our time would be better spend focusing on the spells than trying to swipe. Some runes similar to ammo runes that increased the number of targets and greatly increased the breath damage would be nice

Sorcerers unfortunately are the joke class in this game. Kinnarix was certainly a great surprise and probably not one we will see again for a very long time. Sorcerers are very hard to make viable and balanced because they need so many answers to make up for their shortcomings. They needs shields and dodges, they need a way to add extra damage output to make up for their useless breath, usually in the form of a summon that also needs to be providing rage and protection. They need a way to heal, they need a way to deal with numerous problem towers
Sorcerers suffer from the 4 spell limit more than any class and thus need spells within spells. They also suffer from needing either instant kill or high damage spells which are based on their lower HP stats making them fairly useless once towers move past their tier even a little

Sorcerers would probably be better off if they all started getting runes like Sepulla got with high rage and hp boosts.

I would say the single biggest issue though for both classes is the bias and favoritism that hunters get and the neglect Warriors and Sorcerers recieve. Hunters get the best spells, they get unique runes and glyphs packing both ammo and rage and they get by far the most attention. Pretty much every single seasonal mythic hunter has been good and usually the lineage ones are fairly good too. Though they often do require higher skill classes, this isnt always the case. We do get OP, easy to fly hunters that rarely anyone complains about. Yet with warriors and sorcerers you get constant complaints if they’re good, primarily at end tier where there is the bias that only hunters should be able to take those bases.
When we get OP hunters like Mordred nothing happens
When we get OP warriors like Gig there’s a complete change/nerf of the class
When we get OP sorcerers like Surt… actually I think Surt may have been the only OP sorcerer and that had absolutely nothing to do with the class.
But any good warrior or sorcerer will forever be compared to Gig and Surt but there will be almost no complaints about OP hunters even though many end up being unstoppable until they’re retired.

4 Likes

I don’t think it’s bias or favouritism. I think it’s poor design. Hunters by design can fight hammers and are innately bursty. Warriors and sorcerers attacks just… don’t do it.

Their breath weapons need reworks. Things need to lean into their archetypes outside of “breath weapon different”. Warriors of all types should be naturally tanky in a way that’s noticeable. Sorcerers should really be spell focused and the breath weapon should work with spells. Hunters are hunters and have their place. Honestly invokers are fine too.

3 Likes

A hunter should not be able to solo any target! :scream: yes I said It ……lol

And truthfully no single dragon should……… yet hunters can and do!

The problem is not what we are attacking with!

Nope the problem is what they are attacking and the layout can’t stop a real tank or real sorcerer and still be able to be soloed by a single hunter……

Build a base a hunter can’t solo and you will need more than one class to make a attack!

If they built real layouts we would have to use setup dragons again and actually have to use more than one dragon per attack!
Ahhh but hunters drive revenue so speed is king :man_facepalming::boom:

The dragons are designed fine it’s the bases that can’t handle real warriors or sorcerer designs!
Because content drives revenue when the game has no offensive objective Hunters are used to fuel revenue!
Otherwise they would be used for surgical strikes to remove problem islands……
Instead we see them soloing whole max bases :rofl:

Making them a must have for our spenders!
Hunters are king only to drive revenue!

Remove the speed is king by building real bases with layouts that can stop any single dragon! :point_left:

1 Like

Nah, proper Tank role only works in real multiplayer battle (in which WD is more as 1 on 1 battle, since it’s one dragon at a time)

Passive Tank with high firepower will only promote unhealthy gameplay (a.k.a dumb flying rules). Therefore, if it needs to be a tank, proper active gameplay is necessary (e.g. Sufficient firepower, strategy on which tower to kill / dodge/ tank, spell combo, etc.)

:face_with_raised_eyebrow: Why do I feel that all these examples are OP? There are still a lot to explore with Sorc. Also, if you want a tappy Sorc, Invoker can be your thing.

3 seconds, and depends on the other kit, Ammo reload might not be necessary.

:rofl: Removing Atlas then.
One plus for Fight Pits is that currently, it’s the only pvp without speed factor, although the cons affects it much worse, making it among the worst pvp for now.

2 Likes

Yeah i don’t know what would be balanced or not, that stuff needs play testing. My point was that players should have an incentive to attack with sorcerers that isn’t just to deal a bit more damage. Sorcere attacks should have some utility, and with a Cold Grasp spell, players may even want to attack without the auto, to choose what towers they want to freeze.

Huh, it feels longer than 3 seconds, but that may just be me.

I was thinking of not calculating your troop loss based off your speed, maybe based off of multiple factors, such as how much damage your dragon took, how much it healed, how many spells it used (not passive) or how much damage it dealt. Idk just spit balling, but something other than speed.

2 Likes

I had an idea, where - since the warriors’ breath attack is beam-like, it could go through shields. Idk if this would be too op or not, but this may give them an edge. Of course players could just not super shot shield towers but still.

Make warriors disable hammers, but massively bump there health. ( to hard to decode hammers I presume)

Have sorcerer’s not be rage drained or have rage paused. Either or but not both.

Again maybe to hard to code.

The core of this game was designed around multiple dragons defeating a base. ATLAS and wars forced us to use 1 dragon or be penalised.

That is where this slippery slope started

3 Likes

Ignoring shields would probably be too OP. Though maybe if they burnt towers so they continued to take damage or maybe it decreased the healing effect of hammers to half

I have thought it would be interesting if each class or each element had some kind of special effect. Like ice dragons having extended freezes. Fire dragons burning towers, earth dragons taking less damage or gaining extra health, dark dragons either having a chance to evade a shot or debuffing towers for a small amount

5 Likes

This negates the purpose of the game. Everything is geared around max rewards for 5 flames. If they make it so that you can’t solo a base, they would need to change the revive rates, adjust hospitals, and increase troop build rates. Not impossible, but I think unlikely.
And
People don’t like to fail continuously. If it always feels too hard they will stop trying.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I also think invoker should be able to use the evasion spell to at least speed up though bases with gaps.

Yes they have already quit trying and climbing the mountain🤣
Yes and that’s exactly why we have no player retention!
Because it feels pointless and they stop trying as soon as they realize how far away competitive play is……
Speed is king drives revenue it’s not what the games about its what they made the game into so they could monetize competitive play! :point_left:

This is why mike is always ranting in here about how the game used to be! Lol
And the class imbalance will continue to degrade the competitive play of the game!
Along with that worthless defense map!
But whatever drives revenue right …….
Even if it chokes the fun out of the game!?
Because that’s exactly what that defensive map and speed is king has accomplished……
One viable class for one viable play style sounds riveting……
Said no player ever……. Lol

Here is an idea to make warriors both more competitive and higher skill:

All warrior dragons above a threshold tier (perhaps starting in Sapphire?) will gain several optional breath attack styles that can be chosen before a base is attacked (i.e., you cannot change this option, once you are attacking):

1. Burst Breath: This breath attack builds up energy periodically (once every 4 sec). When this energy has built up, the next tower targeted will get +500 breath speed and take 20% mod HP damage. After this once-off burst damage, breath will be disabled for a short duration (~0.2 sec) to help visually indicate that a burst just happened. After this, the breath attack reverts to normal speed and damage. Recharging occurs regardless of whether the breath attack is being used (so it can charge up as you approach an island).

Comment: The burst attack can bust through hammers, helping to take on multiple defenders; burst breath makes the dragon more invoker-like.

2. Ramping Breath: As long as you keep targeting the same tower, the breath attack ramps to higher and higher damage. Breath attack ramps at a rate of +100% for every 1 sec with no limit. However, as soon as the tower is no longer targeted (if the tower is destroyed, if another tower is targeted, or if breath attack stops), then damage is reset to normal.

Comment: Ramping breath is another way to bust through hammers or a very stubborn tower. Because warriors need +400% at end-game to kill towers at a reasonable rate, this level of ramping should not be OP.

3. Vampiric Breath: This gives the dragon +200% breath attack, but drains 5% HP for every 1 sec of breath attack. Breath speed is increased by +300 to avoid draining extra HP.

Comment: Vampiric breath gives a strong attack boost but with a concomitant penalty, which should help keep game balance. Good to use with a dragon that has lots of healing. Makes dragon more hunter-like, as you will want to deliver short bursts of breath attack to kill towers losing minimal HP.

4. Bellowing Breath: This gives the dragon +300% breath attack, but drains 0.5 rage for every 1 sec of breath attack. Breath speed is increased by +300 to avoid draining extra rage.

Comment: Bellowing breath gives a strong attack boost but with a concomitant penalty, which should help keep game balance. Good to use with a dragon that has lots of rage gain. Makes dragon more hunter-like, as you will want to deliver short bursts of breath attack to kill towers with minimal rage.

5. Legacy Breath: This functions exactly as before, for flyers who prefer the old warrior style. However, breath attack is boosted by +30% to help make warriors more competitive.