Upcoming Changes to the Winterjól Mythic, Surt - Discussion Thread


#813

I concur fully with the above sentiment. Through obsidian too.


#814

I have one word for this: Pathox (Post spell scaling “nerf”)


#815

The unstated part was 3 seconds storm followed by 2.5 seconds fireflak. 5+ seconds worth of Surt taking damage. We talk about offensive timing all the time. Here is defensive timing. If you want to be conservative, do it a half second before storm expires. Still 5 seconds worth of damage to Surt.


#816

Plus, is anyone with Surt really going to wait to hit Ragnarok once storm evaporates?


#817

We are talking in circles because this has all been argued 100 times before. But there are other mythics who can do just that. So yes, I do think that some mythics should be able to clear double defended bases of the same tier. The issue that people seem to have with Surt doing it is that he requires “no” skill. Given his skill-set and the fact that he is a sorc, there isn’t a good way to introduce much skill into his gameplay and still keep him that competitive.
Unless we just want to remove sorcs from the running (so to speak) from competitive drags, I think we have to accept their style of play as an acceptable option.
Is that what we want to do? Just say that from now on there will only be mythic hunters and warriors and sorcs will be legendary only? - Honest question, not trolling


#818

Yep. Tower and base and dragon balance are very different things at different points in the game. With Pathox they looked at one point and altered everything based on that. And that’s something that they need to avoid.

If a maxed Surt (or any other seasonal mythic) should have trouble soloing a well-designed, maxed base, with multiple defenders, who know how to fight him - well, okay, great! From what I hear, that’s the expectation for every dragon at that point in the game. But that’s not how things work at other points in the game.

And changing that doesn’t mean changing Surt, or Pathox, or any other individual dragons, it means an across-the-board change to all towers or dragons at that tier.


#819

I’d rather towers get a health buff and remove hammers altogether. They’re a pretty terrible mechanic.


#820

i think the misconception is what “mythic” means

Means interesting spellset, unique spells, slightly more power

It does not mean “iwin”

I have to disagree with you about “equal tier mythic” clearing equal tier base thats well designed.

I think in the lower tiers you are just used to running into uber crap bases.

I have spoken to quite a few of the forum regulars that are lower tiers, and they feel their bases cannot be taken by even 3 equal tier dragons if defended by 2 defs that know the base. This would fit what I can see as well - even hitting a tier down, a well defended short base with good gear, is almost always 2 dragons, I have a hard time believing that a single mythic clears it

Looking back at the mythics

Merkt- hell no
Huitzl - nope
Corthanak: nope
Pathox - maybe. Probably not. Certainly not for most fliers\

Although I have to concede it becomes an issue with the current meta (only 1 island of towers) - since thereafter theres nothing left. Thats mostly on PG for making their progression so stupidly expensive that players cant have more than 1 island till nearly 350


#821

Today I successfully defended empyrean Surt on 400 level base. Yesterday harbinger on 320 twice. They were rage drained and dead immeadeately.
Btw all those “end game max gear $50,000” bases usually don’t have a rage drain island.


#822

I think this depends a lot on what level you play on.

I’m a step down from end game (n-1) if you will. I see mostly bases using 3-6, sometimes only 4-6

And both 1-2 and 7-8 can be empty or with junk, or full towers.

I see the 1-3 bases much less except when giving backup to smaller players. And I see a lot of players moving their base forward to utilize the middle Long Island.

It does seem that both surt and itzani tend to finish a 1-3 base if they can bust through 3. So I’m seeing the function of bases change to have more disadvantages when having too few towers. But then itzani is vanguard only and it’s probably not been a terrific idea to be a vanguard player crammed into 1-3.

That’s not necessarily bad. Both itz and surt have spells that I think fall into the “slippery slope” of dragon scaling. But I do think base design should not favor as few towers as possible, but instead be a sort of bell curve that moves with your level. Which of corse means they should really do something about how old towers become dusty in our storage but that’s off topic


#823

anyway it’s an horrible situation.

surt was advertized with certain (super op) properties.
then got nerfed and noone were happy, both sides.
now we have red envelopes, and still we don’t know what will happen
Poll says “leave him be” and “buff ragnarok” as main results.
Some experienced players say he still have autopilot.

whatever you decide, dear pg… do it ASAP. This is not acceptable.


#824

Really PG?

I’ve invested so much money to get Surt, before the nerf it was good.

After the nerf my surt esmerald are not able to defeat a base with tower 45(saphire) if there’s 1 DEFENDER.

THE SURT NOW IS WORSE THAN A LEGENDARY DRAGON.

You should at leat give back at last to ragnarok power 20x!

Cause now! its a peace of… this dragon.


#825

I believe it is different at the top, but due mostly to social reasons and not mechanics. I would suggest it’s more than you see less fliers who are terrible, less who don’t know how to fly, less bases that are terrible, and less defenders who don’t know how to defend well.

And of corse when the bases are all on point with good gear and good defenders, nothing less than good flying on good dragons with good gear would or should let you flatten it, and probably it should take more than one dragon unless the pilot is excellent or you are otherwise stronger in offense than they are defense

I think this is one of the major problems. Not sure what a good solution is. A more root issue is inflation or HP, of which hammers compound as a problem. But I don’t think death gaze type spells (ones that have an extremely wide tolerance minimizing scaling and resulting in binary results) are the solution we should embrace. It’s what makes Hau a good dragon but it’s also why Double Hau can still take max bases if flown well. And that really shouldn’t reach 4+ tiers up. The only reason it’s not a huge issue is because it requires massive skill, but dragons like surt actually require less skill.

Well I do think scaling is fubar in general, especially with towers; but, the real issue I see is not lesser tiers needing scaling, it’s that gear adds too much advantage and when you chose between defense or offense, putting your efforts into defense results in bases you can’t beat and dragons that can’t compete with the bases… and as more people see the advantage of good defense they level their gear beyond their competitive tiers attack ability and you see what we have here. The top is only different in that you basically have to have dragons and towers maxed at the top (along with the gear for them) in order to be there. So it’s by nature balanced. Unfortunately if we make dragons stronger there is no counter to make bases stronger when they are maxed.

Maybe gear needs a sort of evolution stone type thing which gates how much of an upgrade you can give it without going to the next tier. Maybe defense and offense should not consume the same shards. (A good strategy at the top may not scale to lower tiers where youn can only chooose one or the other)

All of this is good discussion I think, but none of it says we should make dragons blow through bases. That will only make things worse once the ripples from that change impact the whole game.


#826

There is a limit to how many mages you get.

And yeah more damage towers tend to be more impactful if you place the mages you have strategically.


#827

I defend max out Pathox on my teammate max out base, he doesn’t make it through the last Long Island while dropping hammers.
He simply dies. He’s well balanced in my honest opinion, like I said “it’s not the dragon that is deadly, it’s the flyer”


#828

Really? Damage? Where?..
You & everyone knows he will take Damage in like a tank/warrior like it’s nothing.

You are fully aware he can take all that damage for the 5 seconds then boom :boom: bye bye Island :wave:

He just waits it out, until the storm/earth Ss is down( because he already used “Incinerate” & he holds “Ragnarok” in his mouth then he casts it) then throughs “Ragnarok” then that’s not even the best part!!!

Wait for it …

Then Boom :boom:!!! He gets back to full health :flushed::scream: I didn’t see that coming :man_facepalming:

Like come on, your not fooling anyone with that.


#829

The people that are voting for “Leave him be” & “Buff Ragnarok “ are the people that are fully aware he’s very “Op” & takes no skills at all to use him effectively.

So basically there voting for that “Option” only because for a FACT they know that’s a “I Win” Dragon.

No one likes the TRUTH…

The TRUTH is he’s still OP.

Honestly leave Ragnarok alone & focus on his “Survivability” that’s the #1 problem when people defend against him. He simply gets full Hp back when casting “Ragnarok” , an Ragnarok doesn’t heal that much % of Hp at all.

It’s that one spell that gives him 3 rage “ instantly” that gives him a lot of Hp per tower he destroys back ( an that spell is active for 6 seconds before going to a 3 second cool down ((total of 9 second cool down))


#830

@pg Surt is balanced now. Do not change. If you nerf him using most of the suggestions above he will be worthless. Thank you for the good mythic.


#831

Rage drain islands do the square root of f-all to surt

He is at near full rage before reaching the next island.

There are a handful of situations in which the dragon struggles if the flier stuffs up, but its not like its rocket science to avoid.

Yes he dies if he shoots ragnarok into the ocean
Yes he dies if you shoot rangarok onto shielded towers
He struggles if you fireflak him just before he shoots ragnarok

The problem is all the above is overcome by simply waiting out the supers and firing ragnarok when you are 5 seconds in.

Ofc if the defenders arent triggering supers because they are “waiting” you can kill the base before the supers activate. As they get queued.

And then there is consumables.

I still favor a simple change to his healing so that ragnarok landing on 5 towers restores the dragon to 60% health not 100%. Simple, doesnt change his power, but gives defenders a window to stop him on the second island


#832

Hahahaha your funny :joy: