Upcoming Changes to the Winterjól Mythic, Surt - Discussion Thread


#966

So what I have found is that Ragnarok is now too weak to kill towers of equivalent level, but it’s still possible to survive and finish the base because he can heal so much. I think they need to scale ragnarok back up a bit, and scale the healing factor down. A max obsidian Surt should be able to kill level 60 towers at a minimum. But he doesnt need to be able to heal back to full health while doing so. Change burning hatred to heal only 10% per building instead of 25%, and change ragnarok from 10x attack to 20x attack.


#967

Ragnarok can one shoot towers above his current tier by one tier, if you get hit by the fire Flak then cast Ragnarok he won’t one shoot the towers because the fire Flak Ss reduce his Ragnarok by 1/2. So that’s why sometimes you can’t one shoot towers because of his Ss.


#968

I agree, Ragnarok dose need a little buff.


#969

He may be able to one shot towers above his tier in some tiers, but that is not true for all tiers. Max obsidian is at level 310. Most bases at 310 have 60s, many have 65s. I was building 65s at 300. Ragnarok cannot kill 60s with decent gear at max obsidian, definitely not 65s. That’s AT his tier, not above it.

And that’s without getting hit by fire flak SS too btw, the towers just have more HP than Ragnaroks damage.


#970

True.


#971

Don’t forget one thing though. Level 60 is for Harbingers and mythic Obsidians, 65 Mythic Harbs and then 70 and 75 for Vanguards.
So yes, Obsidian Surt would have sometimes problems with 60 level towers if your rider is decent but the base has a buffed rider because he’s still a legendary at that stage. Unless PG changed anything recently, Surt becomes mythic only at Empyrean level. This is what usually happened to all the seasonals, they become mythics at their highest tier only.


#972

Yee: Haw


#973

So you can build 60s as low as 250ish, and 65s at 300, but you can’t possibly have dragons that are balanced for those towers? I dont think that makes sense for game balance at all.

And game balance is wildly off across the tiers btw. Sapphire surt can handle 45s, garnet can handle 52s, emerald can handle 56s, but obsidian cant handle 60s. And divines dont evolve to harbinger till 315, which is a paltry bump in power anyway. This has come up with other divines too, but towers and dragons should be balanced at ALL tiers, not just at end game. PG is apparently either too lazy or too inept to do it though.

From max obsidian to max vanguard, divines gain about 370% HP. Towers from 60 to 75 only gain about 200% HP. Balance is completely off.


#974

Do you remember when PG decided that Noctua killed too easily the 60-65 level towers bases and decided to mess up everything ? The mess started a long time ago. They are trying to make up for that mess even now… but it’s a work in progress as I see it.

And the seasonals don’t evolve to harbingers before 315 but their power at max obsidian is matching the one of the harbs. That’s the answer I got from PG & co when I complained about the fact that seasonals evolve to Harbs only at 315.


#975

Yes I know, I’m not saying they should make dragons stronger or towers weaker. I suck at making graphs, so I’ll do my best to explain. The power curve of towers is more gradual as they level up, where as the power curve of dragons is a much steeper curve. To truly balance the game, I think they should have those curves match. Basically, dragons at den cap should match towers at builder hut cap at all points along the curve. But they don’t. An expert vanguard is nearly twice as strong as a level 75 tower in comparison to a den capped max obsidian to a level 60 tower.


#976

Impressive, you know my thoughts when I don’t. I haven’t formed a final opinion yet on Surt as I don’t have enough data on him that I have actually seen (and not just you tube clips with others bias). What I do know is I am not looking at end game only since I am not there. I have seen enough Surt’s die in mid-game though to know that it is not an I win at those levels. Again, I have not seen it do anything that a Pathox or Oni don’t already do outside of end game.

In terms of end game…from what I am hearing the new tier shreds those bases anyway. With so many other issues in this game why the hell would I want PG to continue to focus on this?

The game evolves, Surt will become history the same as all other “OP” whined about dragons. Even as players that have gotten it leave the game.


#977

It’s amazing that the problem we’re facing now was started by people complaining about how OP a dragon was


#978

What problem is that?


#979

So people complaining about a legitimate issue is the problem? Not the ham handed solution that made a worse problem? Seems reasonable.


#980

The problem is towers are not balanced to dragon tiers very well between emerald and obsidian. And that was created by people complaining about Noc


#981

You mind expounding/supporting your position a little more?


#982

All those past Season mythic’s all have one thing in common that Surt doesn’t…

“Skills Requirements”


#983

Noctua is still used till this day by a lot of players, Short bases weakness is “Noctua”.

You can vine the blue & cloak if you get the timing right, he’s a set up dragon now that evolves actual skills to set up a base.

Of course Hun is the most required hunter in the game to master, he’s on a whole different lv of skills.

Surt is so simple to fly that a rock can fly him :expressionless::joy:


#984

I’m so glad that someone brought up the idea of balance and relative scaling, particularly for the 98-99% of the player base that is not in Vanguard or above. There, Surt may very well be OP (I wouldn’t know). However, in Obsidian, he clearly is not. At Obsidian, Surt is honesty no more effective than Pathox (perhaps less so), nor easier to fly (at least with the way the vast majority of Platinum tier players fly Pathox…). This, to me, is the crux of the problem going forward - balance for one level/player tier means imbalance for another.


#985

It wasn’t underpowered in obsidian. As a vanguard player I flew surt at max obsidian (post nerf) for a bit. From the harbinger tier I was able to clear many 400’s and 500’s defended even with terrible mistakes. Yes it’s true based with lots of gear could not be achieved.

I just evolved to vanguard today. There is more thought to using it than corth, but even without planning a hit, I’m having no issue getting bases even sometimes when Ragnarok doesn’t fully kill the towers.

I will saw fire flak is a pain, but there is a consumable solution to fire flak.

I would agree that the hp curve of dragons and towers makes it so that it’s less balanced in some places and more balanced in others.

Fully agree dragons should be tested for all tiers, not just the final tier, but I don’t think you will see that changing. Hopefully towers and dragon hp will be scaled a bit better post spell scaling so that it’s less out of balance, but certainly you must understand that it is important to the whole game what max offense vs max defense must balance out or impact will trickle down from top to bottom.

Definitely a contributing factor, but I’d say the issue is the impact of gear. Dragons seem to have about 30-40% increase from legendary to legendary. And yet within a tier you can have 110%+ of difference by gear. (That means no gear vs max gear is more than 2 tiers of difference)

But yeah I’ve long said pg needs to work on new player experience, catchup mechanics, and target content for players other than the top 10%