Update and "Balance" 4.0 and following

If you want to read the War and Peace of Threads, here it is:

I’m going to work through a series of scenarios to show how WD does NOT have to be totally borked by the developers in a mad grab for our money.

Let’s start with the archer tower, as it is right now (this, the trebuchet, and the ballista have actually changed the least throughout all the hubbub. So, I think they provide a good baseline to work with.

Also, if you have not read the thread on the proposed rider armor buffs, you should. One hand gives, the other takes away more, and PG wonders why the players are upset. But I digress.

Here is the archer tower as it is right now (I did not include experience. It does increase, but it is so much smaller than the other values it is essentially a flat line on the scale of these graphs.

Horizontal:

Vertical:

That’s PG’s vision. As the vertical version makes pretty obvious, it will soon be unsustainable (it is on the brink right now). And this if for a tower that almost doesn’t matter. While “not mattering” is another issue, all of these are interconnected. They cannot be solved piecemeal. Even if executed perfectly, the problems have had so long to build and to intertwine that solving any one will just break the game–either bases will become impossible to beat or impossible to defend. This is what we all want to avoid.

I will show some different proposals shortly. Once I get the idea working and scalable, it will be easy to apply to other towers.

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Something that would be super helpful, if you are so inclined. Look just at the first 25 levels, and see how Power Level is calculated. I cannot figure it out. Levels 1-25 were the original levels, and as best I can tell, they have never been messed with.

I know that power level is somehow derived from attack power and HP. Possibly some other values. But if we can figure that puzzle out, we can show just how grossly misrepresented our base defense power is.

I do not think the misrepresentation begins until level 36, but it could be 41.

Here’s why it really matters (in addition to the fact these values have remained constant through nerfing, un-nerfing, capping, and uncapping):

How are those level 60 Ice Flaks doing for ya?

Or that level 60 Ballita? I bet that’s a crucial part of your defense.

Attack (as displayed in game, not “Attack Power”)

Notice any problems?

BUT, since the ice flak throws things off here’s another look:

So, why does attack have such a wide spread when Power Level is much closer?

We’ll look at special attack and then at HP. Maybe we can find something.

Special Attacks:

I guess we’ll look at HP… and then we should have an idea of relative power, since durability is obviously important.

Well, that’s the current state, and showing that is more than PG has done for you. Why the Ice Flak has such good numbers but totally sucks, I am not sure. It fires a regular shot almost twice as quickly as a Dark Flak.

Now for me to do PG’s job for them. This will take a little longer. But I will post when I have something I think is viable. Infinite scaling is much more difficult, so I will probably scale to level 100, just to show that is can be done. Assuming 10 more tower levels per year, that projects the game 4 years into the future.

After that, I’ll show how N-1 works in practice, and why it will ensure the longevity and continued scalability of the game for any duration.

The numbers used to make these graphs are all the latest available.

If you have questions, or if there is anything specific you want me to look at, please post here. I will answer whatever I can, or someone else may know and speak up before I get to it.

Anyway, off to my workshop to do somebody else’s job.

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:thinking: maybe the attack values should be dmg/30s or some other interval with all the different rates of fire. I wonder if some of these other things (disconnect of attack power/def rating) are bad cases of copy pasting and not updating.

Maybe.

But if you make a mini and do no research and build towers, your defense rating is the sum of the power level of all your towers +8 (I think… it’s a low number that you would never notice normally. It is the defense power for the home island.) The challenge is the power level is no longer connected to anything. If it were, base defense power would have dropped drastically when 4.0 was released and players would have noticed during the 41-45 and subsequent updates that the defense was not increasing.

If it were an accident, why does PG not give us accurate numbers? I have asked multiple times. They have not even acknowledged the question.

@PGCrisis @PGEggToken @PGDave (sorry man… but you HAVE to know what’s going on with this number, even if you can’t control what is happening) @PGJared – getting accurate numbers is a key part of your players’ experience, wouldn’t you say?

3 Likes

I need a break.

I will be around, but I am not going to do PG’s job for them.

I have tried to open eyes to what has happened and is happening, and more are seeing it now. I can make decisions for only myself. Each player must do the same.

You may feel powerless, but together, the players have all the power, no matter what the TOS say.

Others will carry the torch I have helped to light. And I will return. I just need a break.

This is one of the most passionate and dedicated user communities I have been a member of, and although very few of you know who I am, it has been my honor to try to make a difference in a game we all have enjoyed playing.

I’ll see you in-game, but I need a break from talking to PG’s brick wall.

We fight as one, or we fail. .

Savage

8 Likes

N-1 cares

When all else fails @SavageAFforPG

Archer Tower Proposal – Can use very similar formulas for all other towers.

I will make sheet with all formulas available. Soon. I am not proposing this as THE solution. But is is A solution that could be applied to all towers, is good for a few more years, and creates a degree of consistency. It also brings all the old towers back to relevance by linking AP and SP to Power Level.

You can also see how N-1 works, although, in this example, it more of an N-4 (or -8, if levels are released 5 at a time).

Current Lumber Lumber Current time Time Current HP Current AP AP Current SA SA ???
level Lumber to 60 to 100 time to 60 to 100 HP to 100 AP to 60 to 100 Special to 60 to 100 Experience Hut Level powerLevel
1 5 5 5 60 60 60 5,500 5,500 289 1,350 1,350 1,040 1,174 1,174 1 - 8
2 9 9 9 120 120 120 6,534 6,534 343 1,499 1,499 1,234 1,303 1,303 13 - 12
3 46 46 46 600 262 260 7,854 7,854 436 1,953 1,953 1,571 1,698 1,698 60 - 18
4 187 187 187 2,400 264 263 9,419 9,419 604 3,219 3,219 2,176 2,800 2,800 140 1 32
5 543 249 240 9,094 267 265 10,979 10,979 836 4,356 4,356 3,011 3,788 3,788 240 1 50
6 1,008 278 266 14,580 270 267 13,072 13,072 1,137 6,241 6,241 4,093 5,427 5,427 405 1 84
7 1,637 307 292 23,040 274 270 15,525 15,525 1,544 8,504 8,504 5,559 7,395 7,395 600 2 140
8 2,396 338 319 28,800 277 272 18,339 18,339 2,089 11,401 11,401 7,521 9,914 9,914 600 2 224
9 3,938 370 346 35,100 282 274 21,549 21,549 2,816 15,301 15,301 10,136 13,305 13,305 750 2 342
10 5,356 405 373 41,559 287 277 25,191 25,191 3,639 20,245 20,245 13,099 17,605 17,605 912 3 520
11 7,336 442 401 51,896 293 280 28,826 28,826 4,095 23,588 23,588 14,742 20,511 20,511 936 3 660
12 11,306 482 429 66,355 300 282 32,316 32,316 4,590 26,654 26,654 16,525 23,178 23,178 1,280 4 840
13 18,051 526 458 103,561 309 285 36,083 36,083 5,125 29,414 29,414 18,449 25,577 25,577 1,644 4 1,040
14 26,433 575 487 137,915 320 288 40,169 40,169 5,704 32,697 32,697 20,534 28,432 28,432 1,691 5 1,288
15 36,694 631 517 177,093 334 291 44,718 44,718 6,349 36,537 36,537 22,857 31,772 31,772 2,087 5 1,590
16 66,748 694 548 219,927 352 294 52,525 52,525 7,456 45,802 45,802 26,841 39,827 39,827 2,546 6 2,211
17 103,025 767 579 297,600 374 298 61,695 61,695 8,756 56,604 56,604 31,523 49,221 49,221 3,048 7 3,060
18 118,279 854 611 345,600 403 301 72,467 72,467 10,285 70,097 70,097 37,027 60,954 60,954 4,000 8 4,212
19 129,598 957 645 388,800 440 305 85,121 85,121 12,080 82,321 82,321 43,489 71,583 71,583 5,334 9 5,796
20 154,799 1,081 679 432,000 489 309 99,983 99,983 14,188 96,691 96,691 51,078 84,079 84,079 7,000 10 8,010
21 187,199 1,231 715 518,400 552 313 117,442 117,442 16,665 113,565 113,565 59,993 98,753 98,753 9,143 11 11,040
22 219,599 1,416 751 604,800 634 318 137,949 137,949 19,573 133,389 133,389 70,463 115,991 115,991 12,000 13 15,249
23 251,999 1,646 790 691,200 743 323 162,037 162,037 22,990 156,668 156,668 82,762 136,233 136,233 16,000 14 21,006
24 269,232 1,933 830 864,000 887 328 190,332 190,332 27,003 184,018 184,018 97,209 160,016 160,016 17,600 16 29,013
25 299,904 2,294 872 864,000 1,079 335 223,569 223,569 31,717 216,145 216,145 114,180 187,952 187,952 19,200 17 40,020
26 340,800 2,750 917 936,000 1,334 342 277,082 277,082 39,305 267,857 267,857 141,499 232,919 232,919 20,800 19 61,440
27 381,696 3,331 965 1,080,000 1,677 350 343,405 343,405 48,711 331,957 331,957 175,360 288,658 288,658 24,000 20 94,384
28 422,592 4,075 1,016 1,152,000 2,140 360 401,654 401,654 56,972 388,255 388,255 205,100 337,613 337,613 25,600 20 129,168
29 463,488 5,029 1,071 1,224,000 2,766 371 443,347 443,347 62,885 428,548 428,548 226,384 372,650 372,650 27,200 20 157,320
30 504,384 6,261 1,130 1,224,000 3,620 384 489,370 489,370 69,411 473,023 473,023 249,880 411,325 411,325 30,400 20 191,680
31 545,280 7,855 1,195 1,370,990 4,789 400 540,170 540,170 76,615 522,115 522,115 275,812 454,013 454,013 32,000 20 233,604
32 586,176 9,927 1,267 1,468,800 6,398 418 596,246 596,246 84,566 576,299 576,299 304,436 501,130 501,130 33,600 21 284,592
33 627,072 12,627 1,347 1,566,720 8,626 440 658,141 658,141 93,344 636,119 636,119 336,037 553,147 553,147 33,600 21 346,748
34 667,968 16,158 1,436 1,664,640 11,724 467 726,462 726,462 103,032 702,145 702,145 370,916 610,561 610,561 33,600 22 422,496
35 708,864 20,787 1,536 1,762,560 16,056 500 801,875 801,875 113,725 775,015 775,015 409,410 673,926 673,926 33,600 22 514,700
36 749,760 26,870 1,650 1,762,560 22,143 540 885,119 885,119 125,529 855,460 855,460 451,905 743,878 743,878 33,600 23 627,120
37 790,656 34,885 1,781 1,762,560 30,737 589 977,004 977,004 138,559 944,255 944,255 498,813 821,091 821,091 33,600 23 764,100
38 831,552 45,468 1,931 1,762,560 42,928 648 1,078,427 1,078,427 152,940 1,042,261 1,042,261 550,586 906,314 906,314 33,600 24 930,944
39 872,448 59,469 2,105 1,762,560 60,301 722 1,190,380 1,190,380 168,816 1,150,452 1,150,452 607,739 1,000,393 1,000,393 33,600 24 1,134,248
40 913,344 78,025 2,307 1,762,560 85,166 812 1,313,954 1,313,954 186,339 1,269,866 1,269,866 670,821 1,104,232 1,104,232 33,600 25 1,381,920
41 954,240 102,659 2,543 2,290,604 120,901 923 1,450,357 1,450,357 205,681 1,401,679 1,401,679 740,452 1,218,851 1,218,851 35,349 25 1,683,672
42 995,136 135,405 2,821 2,743,903 172,464 1,059 1,600,920 1,600,920 227,031 1,547,172 1,547,172 817,311 1,345,367 1,345,367 42,345 26 2,051,456
43 1,036,032 178,988 3,147 3,197,201 247,139 1,228 1,767,114 1,767,114 250,596 1,707,769 1,707,769 902,147 1,485,016 1,485,016 49,340 26 2,499,420
44 1,076,928 237,055 3,532 3,650,500 355,665 1,437 1,950,560 1,950,560 276,609 1,885,043 1,885,043 995,794 1,639,167 1,639,167 56,335 27 3,045,312
45 1,117,824 314,480 3,988 4,103,799 513,893 1,696 2,153,050 2,153,050 305,322 2,080,714 2,080,714 1,099,160 1,809,317 1,809,317 63,331 27 3,710,280
46 1,158,720 417,775 4,529 4,177,339 745,264 2,017 2,376,560 2,376,560 337,017 2,297,180 2,297,180 1,213,260 1,997,135 1,997,135 70,326 28 4,520,592
47 1,199,616 555,636 5,171 4,314,507 1,084,492 2,415 2,623,276 2,623,276 372,001 2,535,638 2,535,638 1,339,202 2,204,447 2,204,447 77,321 28 4,847,740
48 1,240,512 739,657 5,934 4,553,079 1,583,029 2,909 2,895,603 2,895,603 410,616 2,798,853 2,798,853 1,478,219 2,433,282 2,433,282 84,317 29 4,978,760
49 1,281,408 985,271 6,842 4,602,106 2,317,188 3,523 3,196,202 3,196,202 453,241 3,089,394 3,089,394 1,631,669 2,685,875 2,685,875 91,312 29 5,109,780
50 1,322,304 1,312,986 7,923 4,777,719 3,400,192 4,286 3,528,005 3,528,005 500,292 3,410,101 3,410,101 1,801,051 2,964,693 2,964,693 98,307 30 5,240,800
51 1,352,976 1,750,000 9,210 5,000,000 5,000,000 5,235 3,799,275 3,799,275 538,759 3,604,849 3,604,849 1,939,531 3,134,004 3,134,004 101,805 30 5,339,065
52 1,373,424 1,750,000 10,742 5,000,000 5,000,000 6,415 3,991,612 3,991,612 566,032 3,871,276 3,871,276 2,037,716 3,365,631 3,365,631 105,303 30 5,650,425
53 1,404,096 1,750,000 12,565 5,000,000 5,000,000 7,881 4,298,527 4,298,527 609,553 4,172,732 4,172,732 2,194,392 3,627,713 3,627,713 106,000 31 6,128,640
54 1,424,544 1,750,000 14,732 5,000,000 5,000,000 9,705 4,516,139 4,516,139 640,411 4,376,037 4,376,037 2,305,480 3,804,463 3,804,463 106,000 32 6,454,900
55 1,455,216 1,750,000 17,306 5,000,000 5,000,000 11,970 4,863,386 4,863,386 689,652 4,703,697 4,703,697 2,482,746 4,089,327 4,089,327 106,000 33 6,955,465
56 1,475,664 1,750,000 20,361 5,000,000 5,000,000 14,782 5,109,594 5,109,594 724,564 4,930,446 4,930,446 2,608,432 4,286,459 4,286,459 106,000 34 7,296,625
57 1,496,112 1,750,000 23,982 5,000,000 5,000,000 18,269 5,368,265 5,368,265 761,245 5,168,924 5,168,924 2,740,482 4,493,788 4,493,788 106,000 35 7,643,745
58 1,516,560 1,750,000 28,265 5,000,000 5,000,000 22,589 5,640,033 5,640,033 799,783 5,419,682 5,419,682 2,879,218 4,711,794 4,711,794 106,000 35 7,996,825
59 1,537,008 1,750,000 33,324 5,000,000 5,000,000 27,932 5,925,558 5,925,558 840,271 5,683,320 5,683,320 3,024,974 4,940,998 4,940,998 106,000 36 8,355,865
60 1,557,456 1,750,000 39,286 5,000,000 5,000,000 34,531 6,225,538 6,225,538 882,809 5,960,455 5,960,455 3,178,112 5,181,935 5,181,935 106,000 36 8,720,865
61 46,297 42,663 6,540,050 6,261,572 5,443,723 107,749 36 9,161,439
62 54,523 52,663 6,869,765 6,577,243 5,718,166 114,745 37 9,623,308
63 64,146 64,931 7,215,380 6,908,138 6,005,843 121,740 37 10,107,451
64 75,373 79,937 7,577,625 7,254,953 6,307,363 128,735 38 10,614,889
65 88,430 98,239 7,957,261 7,618,419 6,623,358 135,731 38 11,146,688
66 103,565 120,486 8,355,080 7,999,294 6,954,488 142,726 39 11,703,960
67 121,047 147,430 8,771,912 8,398,370 7,301,443 149,721 39 12,287,862
68 141,165 179,936 9,208,617 8,816,474 7,664,941 156,717 40 12,899,606
69 164,224 218,988 9,666,098 9,254,467 8,045,730 163,712 40 13,540,450
70 190,544 265,693 10,145,291 9,713,248 8,444,593 170,707 41 14,211,710
71 220,453 321,281 10,647,175 10,193,753 8,862,342 174,205 41 14,914,756
72 254,283 387,104 11,172,770 10,696,958 9,299,827 177,703 42 15,651,015
73 292,362 464,621 11,723,138 11,223,881 9,757,933 178,400 42 16,421,978
74 335,003 555,386 12,299,387 11,775,582 10,237,580 178,400 43 17,229,194
75 382,497 661,015 12,902,671 12,353,167 10,739,731 178,400 43 18,074,282
76 435,099 783,149 13,534,192 12,957,785 11,265,385 178,400 44 18,958,924
77 493,015 923,413 14,195,204 13,590,637 11,815,586 178,400 44 19,884,877
78 556,389 1,083,347 14,887,011 14,252,971 12,391,419 178,400 45 20,853,967
79 625,287 1,264,341 15,610,972 14,946,090 12,994,016 178,400 45 21,868,100
80 699,685 1,467,550 16,368,502 15,671,347 13,624,555 178,400 46 22,929,256
81 779,450 1,693,806 17,161,076 16,430,155 14,284,262 180,149 46 24,039,501
82 864,334 1,943,524 17,990,228 17,223,981 14,974,415 187,145 46 25,200,984
83 953,955 2,216,602 18,857,554 18,054,355 15,696,343 194,140 47 26,415,944
84 1,047,796 2,512,329 19,764,719 18,922,870 16,451,431 201,135 48 27,686,708
85 1,145,195 2,829,304 20,713,452 19,831,181 17,241,119 208,131 49 29,015,702
86 1,245,346 3,165,363 21,705,555 20,781,014 18,066,905 215,126 50 30,405,449
87 1,347,302 3,517,540 22,742,902 21,774,163 18,930,351 222,121 51 31,858,573
88 1,449,986 3,882,045 23,827,442 22,812,493 19,833,079 229,117 51 33,377,806
89 1,552,204 4,254,287 24,961,205 23,897,948 20,776,777 236,112 52 34,965,989
90 1,652,662 4,628,932 26,146,300 25,032,547 21,763,201 243,107 52 36,626,078
91 1,750,000 5,000,000 27,384,921 26,218,391 22,794,179 246,605 52 38,361,148
92 1,750,000 5,000,000 28,679,350 27,457,665 23,871,609 250,103 53 40,174,394
93 1,750,000 5,000,000 30,031,962 28,752,641 24,997,467 250,800 53 42,069,140
94 1,750,000 5,000,000 31,445,222 30,105,680 26,173,806 250,800 54 44,048,844
95 1,750,000 5,000,000 32,921,695 31,519,238 27,402,761 250,800 54 46,117,097
96 1,750,000 5,000,000 34,464,048 32,995,867 28,686,551 250,800 55 48,277,634
97 1,750,000 5,000,000 36,075,051 34,538,220 30,027,482 250,800 55 50,534,335
98 1,750,000 5,000,000 37,757,583 36,149,053 31,427,951 250,800 56 52,891,235
99 1,750,000 5,000,000 39,514,636 37,831,231 32,890,448 250,800 56 55,352,524
100 1,750,000 5,000,000 41,349,319 39,587,729 34,417,559 250,800 57 57,922,555

Why keep scaling up? I suggest cap all current towers at X (say 60 for argument’s sake). Release a whole new set of towers, where their level 1 = current level 40 power, level 2 = current level 42 power so on and so forth. But these new towers have much higher rss requirements per level, which will provide gating mechanism based on storage hut capacity. Also ‘solves’ the XP issue where you gain a whole crap load of XP just to get a new tower useable. Linking where I first proposed here:

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I kept the scaling up because, when I asked, majority of players felt that the should not be a cap on Tower level. This is not necessarily how I feel, but I wanted to show one way in which you could keep scaling for a reasonable length of time.

For me, the game needs a reset. And a v2.0 for each tower is a good chance for a reset without breaking the game as it stands (some would argue it’s broken).

This way the can reset scaling issues at higher levels without impacting lower levels - I feel tower vs dragon balance at my current level to be OK - but clearly broken at end game.

I did start with a semi usable Tower by choosing the Archer. But how many ballista do you have on your base? And outside of their super shot ability, what use is there for a trebuchet? I do agree that all the tires need to be reworked and I do agree that dragons need to be looked at but not necessarily their power more their cost. I’ll post the actual spreadsheet for those who are interested I just can’t do it from my phone. I think once you see what I did and how I did it you’ll be able to see just how easily all the towers could be modified so that they’re all usable without becoming overpowered.

I do see what you’re saying, about introducing a new kind of Tower. Or rather a new kind of towers. That seems a little bit more ambitious than what I was trying to do. It might actually be a better solution, but I was trying to work with the current system as much as possible.

They don’t even need new kinds of towers, just version 2.0 of the same towers. Starting level AP is higher, scales a bit slower and we don’t need to then have the full on hockey stick curve that current towers are on.

Players can decide when they want to replace their version 1.0 towers with version 2.0 :man_shrugging:. As each level now scale up in AP faster than version 1.0 towers, they will incur less XP so reduces the issue of players levelling up too much just to put new towers on their base, or to “fix” their bases due to past mistakes. Gate the levelling of version 2.0 towers through storage hut capacity.

So, a voluntary conversion to the new version.

Hmmm. That sounds like it could work if implemented well. It would be much less work than trying to revamp every single tower from the ground up. And players who were satisfied at level 59 and didn’t plan to go higher wouldn’t be forced to change.

The disadvantage is that you double the number of towers (even if they have the same display name, many files would have to be duplicated with different values).

But I see where you’re going, I think. A reset button that isn’t really a reset button.

I’d love a reset button for my base :sweat_smile:

Link to spreadsheet.